rcap-433

Transcription

rcap-433

268
Wednesday, April 6, 1994
Royal Commission on
Aboriginal Peoples
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2
3
Ottawa, Ontario
--- Upon resuming at 8:40 a.m. on Wednesday,
April 6, 1994
4
CHAIRPERSON JIM BOURQUE, Royal
5
Commission on Aboriginal Peoples:
6
open today's session.
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Good morning.
We will
I would like to, at this time, call on
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Elder Paul Vincent to lead us in opening prayer.
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--- (Opening Prayer by Elder Paul Vincent)
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CHAIRPERSON JIM BOURQUE:
Before we
11
outline the orders of the day, I would like to ask everyone
12
to try to stick to the topic at hand because they are very
13
important issues we are talking about.
14
our regular business on time or a little ahead of schedule,
15
then I would like to have half an hour or so to open the
16
floor to general questions that maybe we missed yesterday
17
or we will miss today.
18
would be good.
19
the questions or make your questions brief and limit your
20
discussions to the issue.
21
If we can finish
So, if we can arrange that, that
So, we should be to the point and answer
This morning we are going to deal with
22
issue number IV, Métis self-government.
23
will moderate that part of it.
Mr. Donavon Young
At 10:45 to 12:00 o'clock
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the issue will be Métis women and community decision-making
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and Ms Karen Collins will moderate that section of our
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agenda.
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15:45 again we will have Karen Collins moderating and the
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issue is implementation and solutions.
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official agenda.
We have lunch from 12:00 to 1:30.
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From 1:30 to
That is our
We will have a break at 15:45 to 16:00
8
and our rapporteur, Marty Dunn, will report on the
9
Conference.
At 16:30 to 16:45 there will be closing
10
comments and closing prayer.
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place in there a bit of time to have a period for general
12
questions, I think that would round out the day pretty
13
well.
14
15
So, if we can squeeze some
Without any further adieu, I am going
to ask Mr. Donavon Young to take the chair.
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MODERATOR DONAVON YOUNG, Urban
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Perspectives, Research, Royal Commission on Aboriginal
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Peoples:
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will find the questions for Métis self-government under
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Tab 6, if you wanted to turn there now.
Thanks, Jim, and good morning, everyone.
You
21
As Jim said, from 9:00 this morning until
22
about 10:30 -- so, for the next hour and a half -- we will
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talk about issues around Métis self-government and service
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delivery.
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your views and your comments around self-government and
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service delivery.
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The Commissioners are interested in hearing
I would like to, as much as possible,
5
go through some of these questions.
6
with Question Number 1 and I have added a number of
7
ancillary or secondary questions:
8
have for self-government?
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process towards self-government?
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Perhaps we can begin
What visions do Métis
Do you envision a transitional
Would it be community-based or regional
11
in scope?
12
Métis National Council, in its brief to the Commission,
13
spoke of a national form of self-government.
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NCC envision a similar type?
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Perhaps it might be national in scope.
The
Does the
What would be the main structural
16
elements of Métis self-government?
In other words, what
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would it look like?
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it be primarily service delivery, would it also have
19
law-making capacity and policy-making capacity or to
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concentrate primarily on the provision of services?
What would be its main parts?
Would
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Urban self-government is something that
22
I am interested in and the entire Commission is, certainly.
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What are your visions for urban self-government?
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What
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will self-government in the cities look like?
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something that we can work towards?
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self-government in the cities concentrate primarily on
4
the provision of services or would it also include such
5
things as law-making?
6
Is that
Again would
What preparations are necessary towards
7
the implementation of Métis self-government?
8
requirements must be in
9
financial requirements or preparations are necessary and
place?
What legal
What political and
10
what administrative and human resources or training
11
requirements are necessary to make self-government a
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reality?
13
Question Number 3:
14
implementation of self-government and the delivery of
15
services proceed; on a "Métis only" basis or on a "status
16
blind" or pan-Aboriginal basis or are there other options?
17
18
Is there some common ground?
How should the
Is it necessarily those
two extremes?
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We have heard testimony certainly in the
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Prairie provinces where the testimony is quite strong that
21
services ought to be on a "Métis-only" basis.
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heard that in some of the eastern and Maritime provinces,
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where a pan-Aboriginal approach seems to be more suitable,
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We haven't
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but we would like to talk about that, the provision of
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services and who would qualify.
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What are the priority areas for transfer
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of authority from perhaps federal and certain provincial
5
governments to Métis governments?
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areas; education, health, social services?
7
what are the real priorities?
8
What are the priority
What are they,
A question that you don't see here, but
9
I think would be useful to talk about -- certainly the
10
Aboriginal Peoples Council of New Brunswick in its brief
11
to the Commission spoke about political reforms to Canadian
12
institutions.
13
but is there a role for political reforms to Canadian
14
institutions, such as guaranteed representation in the
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House of Commons or in the Senate, on City Council, on
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school boards.
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thing and, if so, is it a priority?
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We don't really call that self-government,
So, political reforms; is that a useful
So, those are some of the questions we
19
have.
20
I don't know a lot of your names.
21
me, I am going to do a bit of pointing here and there.
22
I know a few of you, but I don't know as many as I should.
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We will begin with a round table.
Unfortunately,
You will have to excuse
So, without further delay, why don't we begin.
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I would like to, as much as possible,
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begin with Question Number 1 and work our way down the
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list, if you will permit.
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Number 1 and see if we can just go through the list and
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begin talking generally about visions for Métis
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self-government at a national, regional, community level,
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what would it look like, what would be its functions, what
8
would be its roles.
9
10
So, why don't we start with
So, let's talk about visions, to begin
with, perhaps.
I will open the floor.
11
Claude?
12
CLAUDE AUBIN, Métis Individual,
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Province of Quebec:
It's quite a lengthy discussion we
14
could have there, but would it be possible -- the Métis
15
of Quebec did a presentation in front of the Commission
16
last year expressing many of those issues.
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possible, for the record, that what we presented at the
18
time be included in this circle in the sense of the document
19
we presented?
Would it be
20
Maybe to facilitate that, we did bring
21
a document which is part of this thing, if it could just
22
be included.
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that you were talking about this morning.
Of course, we will be discussing those things
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It is like we
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are again tabling this document.
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3
MODERATOR DONAVON YOUNG:
Okay, sure.
We will do that, Claude.
4
CLAUDE AUBIN:
What I will say is that
5
it's the document that we brought here and that we gave
6
to everybody.
7
- La Conféderation des Métis".
8
full document be part of this assessment that you will
9
be making.
It's called "La Nation métisse au Québec
We would like that the
10
11
Who would like to begin?
Thank you.
Who would like
12
to talk about their ideas, their visions for Métis
13
self-government?
14
Claude?
15
CLAUDE AUBIN:
À la lueur des
16
circonstances qui entourent les Métis dans la province
17
de Québec, il y a une chose aussi qu'il ne faudrait pas
18
oublier:
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gouvernementale, on ne peut pas seulement parler en
20
fonction de la réalité canadienne; il y a une autre réalité
21
qui est présente et à laquelle nous devons faire face
22
constamment, et c'est la prise de position de la
23
souveraineté des Québécois.
Nous, quand on parle d'autonomie
Je ne sais pas jusqu'à quel
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point on peut dissocier notre concertation vis-à-vis la
2
situation de notre désir d'autonomie gouvernementale, mais
3
nous, nous devons jusqu'à un certain point, étant donné
4
que nous devons faire face à ça, patauger quasiment dans
5
deux situations, deux dossiers différents quand on parle
6
d'autonomie gouvernementale.
7
Naturellement, nous nous considérons
8
comme des individus sous une emprise fédérale.
Par
9
contre, suite aux négociations fédérales-provinciales,
10
nous nous posons des questions sérieuses advenant des
11
transferts de pouvoir fédéral-provincial vis-à-vis les
12
autochtones.
13
C'est juste quelque chose que
14
j'aimerais, à la lueur des discussions qu'on amène aussi
15
sur la table, que vous preniez en considération ou
16
peut-être nous éclairer jusqu'à un certain point, comment
17
est-ce qu'on pourrait parler de façon plus claire vis-à-vis
18
ça.
19
de nation à nation.
20
comme une nation, nous considérons le Canada comme une
21
nation.
22
Commission soit consciente.
23
Notre position est claire:
Nous voulons négocier
Nous ne considérons pas le Québec
Donc c'est quelque chose dont j'aimerais que la
GARTH WALLBRIDGE, Métis Policy Team,
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a question for you and it's so hypothetical, you may not
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be in any position to answer it.
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Claude, I have
With the ideas in Quebec for the last
5
several decades, but of current interest in terms of
6
separation, how is your organization, if at all, dealing
7
with the Quebec government on these same kinds of issues
8
you are just speaking of?
9
now in deciding what the future of your organization might
10
be if this very big question in terms of separation ever
11
moves much farther along the spectrum?
12
Is that a part of your plan
CLAUDE AUBIN:
Yes, it is because,
13
premièrement, la réalité est qu'au Québec, le gouvernement
14
du Québec ne reconnaît que 11 nations sur son territoire
15
et ne reconnaît pas la nation métisse comme telle.
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gouvernement du Québec et les Premières Nations peuvent,
17
par processus, faire des ententes entre eux, et nous, on
18
se pose toujours la question:
19
une situation d'indépendance au Québec?
20
la question.
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négociations?
22
questions-là ont été posées déjà au Québec et n'ont pas
23
été répondues.
Le
Qu'adviendra-t-il advenant
On se la pose,
Est-ce que nous serons inclus dans les
Les questions n'ont pas été répondues; ces
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Tout dernièrement on a eu une rencontre
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avec le NCC, c'est-à-dire le Congrès des peuples
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aborigènes, et un représentant du Québec était là à ce
4
moment-là.
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bien dit, très clairement, que le gouvernement du Québec
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et les Premières Nations ont demandé qu'elles seules soient
7
les nations qui transigent avec le Québec pour des
8
discussions gouvernementales sur ce sujet-là.
9
une de nos préoccupations; elle est soulevée dans notre
10
La question a été soulevée, sauf qu'il a été
Donc c'est
document.
11
Suite à la prise de position
12
nationaliste non seulement du Québec mais aussi des
13
Premières Nations sur le territoire du Québec, qui est
14
très forte, on se pose des questions sérieuses, à savoir,
15
si on ne s'organise pas en entité nationale, au Québec,
16
les Métis, que nous arrivera-t-il au lendemain de la
17
souveraineté, d'une question de souveraineté avec le
18
Québec?
Donc c'est une grosse préoccupation pour nous.
19
Nous ne savons pas jusqu'à quel point
20
le gouvernement du Québec est prêt à... parce que nous,
21
pour les Métis du Québec, la nation métisse au Québec,
22
ce n'est pas rien qu'une question de services.
23
parle d'autonomie gouvernementale, on parle de structures
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gouvernementales, on parle de prise en charge, on parle
2
d'un paquet de choses.
3
à un organisme de services; nous voulons entrer dans
4
l'équité, dans l'égalité des Premières Nations sur le
5
territoire du Québec, dans toutes négociations possibles
6
qui se feront en tripartite ou en bipartite.
Donc on ne veut pas être limité
7
8
GARTH WALLBRIDGE:
9
That's good, thanks, Claude.
10
CLAUDE AUBIN:
Garth?
No, that's fine.
Juste pour rajouter,
11
nous ne voulons pas entrer en discussion d'autonomie
12
gouvernementale en bipartite avec le Québec.
13
définitif.
14
fédéral, et nous ne voulons pas aussi être de juridiction
15
provinciale.
16
17
Ça, c'est
Nous voulons le faire dans un contexte
Okay, thank
you, Claude.
18
Commissioner Chartrand?
19
COMMISSIONER PAUL CHARTRAND:
Mr.
20
Aubin, I wonder if you would care to comment a bit further
21
on the issue that you have raised.
22
anticipate what sort of recommendations this Commission
23
might make respecting your constituents and its
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I am trying to
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aspirations in the province of Quebec.
2
I understand there are six more million
3
people in Quebec.
4
organization?
5
so that they listen to your claims?
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you make to them?
7
which, presumably, might be a way of moving government
8
to listen to your claims?
9
sort of mechanisms, what sort of strong arguments?
10
How many members are there in your
How do you plan to move Quebec governments
What arguments will
Do you have legal claims to the land
What sort of claims or what
Would it be possible for you to
11
highlight/summarize them here for us so that we could have
12
an understanding of what it is that we could recommend,
13
so that the government would be moved to see that there
14
is good reason to respond positively to the claims that
15
you might refer to the government of Quebec?
16
CLAUDE AUBIN:
Premièrement, je dois
17
clarifier quelque chose, et c'est que la nation métisse
18
au Québec ou les Métis au Québec pour l'instant ont toujours
19
existé, ont toujours été là.
20
historique qu'ont vécue les Métis au Québec depuis 1970,
21
depuis la création de l'Alliance laurentienne des Métis
22
et Indiens sans statut à l'époque, les Métis au Québec
23
ont toujours eu de la difficulté au sein de certaines
Mais, suite à une situation
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organisations à se développer dans un contexte spécifique
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de leur identité culturelle.
3
L'aboutissement de cette situation a
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forcé ce qu'on appelle au Québec les Métis nationalistes...
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parce que, il faut que je sois honnête avec vous, au Québec
6
il y a les Métis nationalistes et il y a les Métis qui,
7
parce qu'ils n'ont pas reçu un niveau d'éducation politique
8
ou de prise en charge, de possibilité de voir qu'ils peuvent
9
se prendre en charge politiquement, de ce qu'ils sont et
10
de ce qu'ils peuvent devenir, de ce qu'ils peuvent faire...
11
le développement de la nation métisse au Québec est un
12
développement d'une entité dans un contexte national égale
13
à toutes les autres nations sur le territoire du Québec
14
et est un processus qui ne date que d'un an.
15
Malheureusement pour nous -- je ne sais
16
pas si c'est nécessairement malheureusement, mais
17
heureusement d'une certaine façon aussi -- nous n'avons
18
aucun financement de personne.
19
la nation métisse au Québec présentement est fait de façon
20
bénévole.
21
que j'ai pour l'Alliance autochtone du Québec, qui existe
22
déjà depuis 20 ans, que nous n'avons aucune aide.
23
contraire, même, si vous lisez les articles de journaux,
Tout le développement de
Je peux même vous dire, avec tout le respect
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c'est publié dans les journaux présentement, certains
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journaux dans le comté de Pontiac, où des présidents de
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régions disent qu'ils ne peuvent pas aider au financement
4
de la nation métisse au Québec parce que l'Alliance
5
autochtone du Québec rencontre des difficultés financières
6
énormes.
7
Naturellement, on se pose des questions
8
sérieuses, à savoir, quel est donc le mandat de ces
9
organismes, de ces associations-là, pour les gens qui ont
10
choisi de façon claire, à travers leur identité, de se
11
développer dans une entité nationale.
12
réalité avec laquelle on vit.
13
Ça, c'est la
Maintenant, depuis qu'on a réussi à
14
décortiquer et à être capable de rencontrer dans des
15
communautés des Métis, avec un agenda métis, pour une
16
discussion métisse, on a réussi depuis un an à informer
17
la population.
18
d'information de ça.
19
façon plus concertée et de façon plus... comment est-ce
20
que je pourrais dire?
21
c'est beau, on le fait, mais le Québec est grand.
22
23
On est encore dans le processus
Et nous savons que si on peut, de
Le bénévolat, Monsieur Chartrand,
Nous allons chercher tranquillement des
Métis nationalistes convaincus qui sont en train de se
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joindre tranquillement au processus du développement de
2
la nation métisse au Québec.
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un code de citoyenneté.
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un processus.
5
dans les communautés, dans plusieurs communautés au
6
Québec, des représentants de la promotion de la nation
7
métisse.
Nous sommes en train d'établir
Nous sommes en train d'identifier des gens
Nous sommes très prudents.
8
9
Aussi, nous avons établi
Nous sommes prêts présentement à
négocier avec le fédéral pour un processus d'énumération,
10
un processus de consultation sur l'autonomie
11
gouvernementale métisse -- et non pas un processus de
12
consultation cintré avec les Indiens hors réserve ou les
13
Indiens sans statut -- pour qu'on puisse parler de nous,
14
pour qu'on puisse élaborer un projet d'une nation dans
15
toute sa totalité.
16
vous:
17
antérieurement d'aller de l'avant dans un contexte
18
nationaliste.
19
Donc il faut que je sois honnête avec
Nous n'avons jamais eu l'opportunité
Ça, c'est une clarification que je me
20
devais de dire à la Commission.
Ceux qui ont vu les dix
21
personnes, les cinq femmes et cinq hommes qui se sont
22
présentés à Montréal l'an passé, déjà la semence de voir
23
ces dix personnes là se prendre en charge, aller devant
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la Commission et dire "Écoutez, Messieurs les
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Commissaires, écoutez, Canada, écoutez, Québec, nous
3
sommes Métis, nous existons"... l'adrénaline était là.
4
C'était toute une décision pour ces gens-là de dire:
5
Enfin, je m'en vais et je me dis que je suis Métis, je
6
ne suis plus embarqué dans un bateau où on me dit "T'es
7
ci" et où on me dit "T'es ça"; c'est une décision qui a
8
été prise en fonction de ça.
9
10
Les revendications et les arguments.
Premièrement, on pourrait dire que les
11
arguments, c'est qu'on voudrait que vous reconnaissiez
12
que, de fait, au Québec, il y a des Métis qui désirent
13
s'organiser dans une entité nationale avec une vision que
14
dans chacune des provinces... dans plusieurs communautés
15
à la grandeur du Québec il y a des Métis nationalistes
16
qui ont une vision d'une grande confédération métisse ou
17
d'une grande nation métisse d'un bout à l'autre du pays
18
dans le respect de la diversité de cette nation-là.
19
Comme vous le savez, Monsieur Chartrand,
20
il y en a qui se rattachent dans un méchif (PH) et parlent
21
français ojibway, français cri, anglais cri, nous avons
22
les Montagnais, et caetera, et caetera, et caetera.
23
il y a une grande diversité qui doit être respectée.
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Dans le contexte de cette
2
reconnaissance-là, il y a aussi ce dont on a parlé un peu
3
hier quand on a parlé de traités, quand on a parlé du lien
4
que plusieurs d'entre nous ont à certains traités, du lien
5
aux droits aboriginaux, les droits qui nous
6
permettraient... parce qu'on ne veut plus voir petit, on
7
ne veut plus être assis sur le siège d'en arrière à espérer
8
que peut-être les Premières Nations vont dire un jour:
9
Oui, nous allons vous inviter autour de la table de
10
négociation.
11
Nous voulons aller de l'avant et dire
12
que dans une refonte, si vous voulez, des revendications
13
territoriales sur la map du Québec, parce que nous sommes
14
de ce territoire-là, de cette région-là, nous avons droit
15
à une place pour des terres communautaires ou en partage
16
avec d'autres communautés, dépendamment de ce à quoi les
17
discussions aboutiront.
18
remarquer que, par circonstances, toute notre population
19
est des payeurs d'impôts et aussi des détenteurs de
20
territoires privés, qui sont les propriétés privées de
21
chacun de ces individus là, qui, semblable à la communauté
22
de Kanesatake, qui est un damier, peuvent devenir, dans
23
une revendication de base territoriale, une base peut-être
Nous voulons aussi vous faire
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d'une vision contemporaine d'un avenir, comment est-ce
2
qu'on pourrait se négocier ça.
3
Aussi, il faut que vous sachiez qu'au
4
Québec, lorsque nous faisons partie de certaines
5
associations, on nous dit... on parle des Indiens hors
6
réserve, mais au Québec il y a aussi des communautés
7
métisses; il y a des Métis qui vivent dans des centres
8
urbains aussi.
9
-- ça, c'est très important -- nous avons des territoires
Donc nous sommes une communauté de gens
10
distincts qui sont nos propriétés pour l'instant, nous
11
sommes prêts à négocier des territoires communautaires
12
pour l'usage exclusif de la population métisse au Québec;
13
pourquoi pas?
14
Nous, on veut pousser de l'avant dans
15
cette égalité-là tout ce qui est accessible aux Premières
16
Nations et tout ce qui est accessible aux négociations
17
qui auront lieu entre le fédéral, le provincial et le Québec
18
(sic); pourquoi pas?
19
gouvernementale touche, soit dans nos communautés ou soit
20
en milieu urbain, aussi le développement culturel, le
21
développement social, le développement politique, le
22
développement gouvernemental, qui ne sera peut-être pas
23
semblable mais peut-être avec plusieurs similitudes ou
Mais notre vision d'autonomie
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similarités avec ce que les Premières Nations du Québec
2
pourront développer.
3
Mais, avec tout le respect de ce
4
processus-là, nous voulons être là, à cette table de
5
négociation, toute table de négociation qui sera
6
entreprise entre le Québec et le Canada, entre le Canada
7
et les autochtones du Québec, entre les autochtones du
8
Québec et le Québec.
9
Si on a l'opportunité d'être à une table
10
de concertation, si on a l'opportunité d'être dans un
11
cercle de discussion, ces choses-là seront préparées en
12
fonction des demandes ou des discussions qui auront lieu.
13
Donc, le highlight de ça, c'est que, dans un contexte
14
d'autonomie gouvernementale, nous espérons que les
15
Premières Nations nous inviteront et nous espérons aussi
16
que les gouvernements concernés nous inviteront.
17
Peut-être aussi pour clarifier quelque
18
chose, dans le passé, si les Métis n'étaient pas là, dans
19
cette entité-là, c'est que, comme je vous ai dit au début,
20
nous sommes englobés dans ce concept d'un peuple distinct
21
au Québec promu par l'Alliance autochtone du Québec, mais
22
un peuple sans nom, un peuple "alliancien", le peuple de
23
l'Alliance autochtone du Québec.
Et, pour plusieurs
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2
d'entre nous, nationalistes métis, c'est très difficile.
Donc si les gouvernements invitent
3
l'Alliance autochtone du Québec, malheureusement, cette
4
vision de la nation métisse sera englobée dans la
5
présentation de ces gens-là, qui -- il faut que je sois
6
honnête aussi -- ne sont pas tout à fait en accord avec
7
ce que nous faisons.
8
développement de la nation métisse au Québec est quelque
9
chose qui ne peut plus être arrêté maintenant, parce
10
11
12
13
14
15
Mais ça, c'est leur problème.
Le
qu'enfin nous nous sommes retrouvés dans cette vision-là.
Si je continue... vous posiez des
questions au sujet du développement...
M. Dussault
wanted to ask a question, Claude, or make a comment.
COPRÉSIDENT RENÉ DUSSAULT:
Monsieur
16
Aubin, je ne veux pas vous interrompre, mais simplement,
17
peut-être qu'à ce moment-ci il serait utile d'avoir une
18
ou deux clarifications.
19
La première a trait à la reconnaissance
20
de la nation métisse par le gouvernement du Québec.
21
avez fait état de la résistance, effectivement, à
22
reconnaître comme douzième nation au Québec... il y a dix
23
nations autochtones et il y a les Inuit.
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Vous
Les Métis comme
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tels... vous dites également qu'il y a de la résistance
2
de la part des Premières Nations au Québec à ce que vous
3
soyez reconnus par le gouvernement du Québec comme une
4
nation distincte et que vous puissiez avoir des relations
5
avec le gouvernement du Québec et des négociations avec
6
le gouvernement du Québec.
7
8
9
Alors j'aimerais peut-être que vous
clarifiez ça.
CLAUDE AUBIN:
La résistance, ce n'est
10
pas une résistance -- comment est-ce que je pourrais dire
11
ça -- de front; c'est-à-dire que toute chose nouvelle,
12
toute chose qui demande des refontes, toute chose qui
13
demande de repenser, naturellement, tout changement
14
apporte une certaine résistance.
15
convaincus que cette résistance-là n'est pas une
16
résistance négative pour l'instant.
17
plutôt une remise en question de perceptions.
Mais nous sommes
Je pense que c'est
18
Des fois, nous, quand on est en train
19
de faire le développement et qu'on évolue avec le dossier
20
de la nation métisse, on se dit toujours que si dans cette
21
concertation des Métis ça peut aider certains Métis à mieux
22
comprendre qui ils sont et qu'ils se sentent plus rattachés
23
à leur nation autochtone d'origine et qu'ils veulent
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prendre cette route-là pour se rallier à leur nation
2
d'origine, tant mieux.
3
à s'apercevoir qu'ils se sentent mal dans ça et qu'ils
4
aiment mieux être Québécois, c'est correct avec nous.
5
Mais, du fait qu'on commence à soulever cette
6
discussion-là, la résistance des Premières Nations est
7
plutôt une espèce de prudence; ils sont très prudents
8
vis-à-vis tout ça.
9
Si ça peut aider certains gens
Naturellement, ça remet en question
10
beaucoup leur citoyenneté ou leur membership, parce que
11
certaines nations parlent d'une identité à partir de la
12
Loi sur les Indiens, et nous, on parle de citoyenneté
13
métisse.
14
sur les Métis, n'a aucun effet.
15
aussi certaines valeurs traditionnelles, coutumières, et
16
se posent des questions sérieuses... parce qu'on parle
17
avec eux sur leur concept d'autonomie gouvernementale,
18
de souveraineté; souveraineté veut dire abandon de la Loi
19
sur les Indiens, veut dire une prise en charge coutumière
20
de leur définition de ce qu'ils sont.
21
cause beaucoup de choses.
22
23
Donc l'application de la Loi sur les Indiens,
Eux remettent en question
Donc ça remet en
L'autre affaire aussi, c'est que la peur
que certaines communautés autochtones ou que certaines
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nations autochtones ont de cette nation métisse, parce
2
que nous sommes parfois beaucoup, avec tout le respect...
3
avec tout le respect.
4
voient un peu comme un miroir de ce qu'ils sont aussi,
5
non seulement sur le plan physique mais sur le plan
6
intellectuel ou culturel.
Je le dis dans le respect, ils nous
7
Donc c'est pour ça que nous avançons ce
8
dossier avec d'extrêmes précautions, parce que ce n'est
9
pas notre objectif de donner des leçons aux Premières
10
Nations, ce n'est pas notre objectif de les mettre dans
11
une situation insoutenable, mais toutes les questions qui
12
nous sont posées, soit par les populations du Québec et
13
canadienne ou la population autochtone du Québec... c'est
14
que justement la fameuse chose classique qui dit qu'avec
15
ce concept de nation métisse au Québec la moitié des gens
16
au Québec pourraient être métis; il y a peut-être une
17
possibilité là.
18
Mais la façon dont nous, on se voit comme
19
Métis, la nation métisse au Québec, dans ce concept global
20
de l'autonomie gouvernementale, c'est que c'est une raison
21
d'être, c'est une façon d'être dans le respect de cette
22
entité, de ce que nous sommes.
23
paquet de monde, parce que n'oubliez jamais, Monsieur
Donc ça peut éliminer un
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Dussault, que le ticket sanguin n'est pas le seul ticket
2
d'importance pour être Métis.
3
Nations sont métissées, mais pas nécessairement métisses.
4
5
Beaucoup de Québécois sont métissés mais pas
nécessairement Métis.
6
7
Métis, c'est ici, c'est là, c'est là.
C'est bien important.
8
9
Beaucoup de Premières
Monsieur
Aubin, vous venez de donner un peu votre vision de
10
l'Association métisse du Québec.
11
tantôt que c'était une vision différente de l'Alliance
12
laurentienne, et je sais que l'Alliance laurentienne avait
13
été invitée ici.
14
de l'Alliance; hier il n'y en avait pas.
15
Vous avez mentionné
Je ne sais pas s'il y a des représentants
Peut-être que ce serait utile que vous
16
nous disiez la différence avec la vision de l'Alliance
17
laurentienne.
18
Ça clarifierait.
CLAUDE AUBIN:
Je n'aime pas parler des
19
autres.
Ce serait peut-être préférable que vous leur
20
posiez la question.
21
association -- parce que même si je suis Métis je peux
22
être membre des Chevaliers de Colomb, je peux être membre
23
de n'importe quelle corporation au Canada -- la différence
Mais, comme membre de cette
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est:
la notion métisse, entité gouvernementale
2
nationale.
3
L'Alliance autochtone du Québec est une
4
corporation de services.
5
être qu'une corporation de services, elle veut avoir accès
6
à l'autonomie gouvernementale dans le respect d'une
7
identité propre.
8
La nation métisse ne désire pas
L'Alliance autochtone est une
9
corporation de services qui dessert les Métis, les Indiens
10
hors réserve, les Indiens statués hors réserve, les Indiens
11
sans statut hors réserve.
12
services, point.
13
C'est une corporation de
Dernière
14
question.
15
confédération nationale métisse à l'échelle du Canada.
16
Est-ce que vous voyez des liens entre la nation métisse
17
du Québec et la nation métisse de l'ouest, de Louis Riel
18
originellement?
19
Est-ce que vous pourriez revenir là-dessus?
20
Vous avez mentionné tantôt que vous voyiez une
Vous nous en avez parlé à Montréal.
CLAUDE AUBIN:
Quand on parle de cette
21
vision de cette confédération-là, elle entre dans la vision
22
de la grande confédération des nations autochtones du
23
Canada.
Comme vous le savez, on peut parler de
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constitution canadienne, on peut parler de beaucoup de
2
choses, de gouvernement canadien et de promotion de
3
création d'autonomie gouvernementale, mais il y a une chose
4
qu'il faut qu'on réalise:
5
des Premières Nations... la nouvelle nation de la
6
prophétie, la nation métisse, a toujours été là.
7
L'autonomie gouvernementale
Une chose, dans cette vision de la grande
8
confédération... oui, il y a un lien.
9
entrer, selon la juridiction originaire des nations
10
autochtones, pour être capable de joindre la grande
11
confédération des nations autochtones du Canada -- la
12
grande confédération -- dans le respect de chacune des
13
confédérations qui existent, soit la Confédération
14
wabénaki, la Confédération des Six Nations, la
15
Confédération des Grands Lacs, la Confédération des Sept
16
Nations, la Confédération des Trois Feux, et j'en passe...
17
parce que là, on implique un contexte territorial global
18
de l'Île de la Tortue et non pas les États-Unis ou le Canada
19
ou les provinces ou les états individuels.
20
C'est que pour
Pour concerter cette vision de
21
respect... il ne faut pas oublier non plus que le Métis
22
National Council est une corporation, que MMF est une
23
corporation qui essaie fortement d'entrer dans cette
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vision d'une entité nationale gouvernementale souveraine.
2
Mais cette vision de cette confédération-là, c'est d'unir
3
dans une unité nationale et confédérale, pour tous les
4
Métis dans le respect de toutes les disparités et
5
diversités régionales et communautaires, une entité d'une
6
vision d'unité et de développer dans le respect de cet
7
ensemble l'histoire totale du développement de la nation
8
métisse.
9
10
Comme je vous ai dit -- je ne sais pas
si je l'ai dit à Montréal -- quand Mme Riel vous a dit:
11
"Écoutez, ce petit gars-là, Louis Riel, c'est un petit
12
gars de chez nous, de Lavaltrie", Mme Riel, ce n'est pas
13
ça qu'elle voulait dire.
14
c'est que la philosophie, la pensée métisse, le
15
développement de ce que les Métis avaient subi dans l'est
16
était juste une continuité de ce qui a continué dans les
17
provinces des prairies et qui a abouti jusqu'au Yukon.
18
Donc l'histoire a toujours un début, mais elle n'a pas
19
toujours une fin, l'histoire; elle continue.
Ce qu'elle voulait vous dire,
20
Donc la confédération... et c'est pour
21
ça que, de façon symbolique, le retour du drapeau, qui,
22
l'été passé -- prêté par la Commission -- s'est promené
23
dans l'est et est revenu avec une étoile, c'est la nouvelle
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vision, c'est notre connexion de toute cette
2
confédération-là.
3
grande confédération métisse, dans une entité nationale,
4
nous pourrons joindre la grande confédération; pas
5
l'Assemblée des Premières Nations, la grande confédération
6
des nations autochtones.
7
Et lorsque nous serons unis dans une
Cette vision-là nous est donnée par nos
8
anciens.
Elle ne vient pas de moi, elle nous est donnée
9
par cette prophétie.
Les anciens font une semence non
10
seulement dans les Premières Nations mais ils le font aussi
11
chez nous.
12
d'amitié.
13
encore.
14
15
On l'a déjà fait en 1701 et on peut le faire
Thank you,
Claude.
16
17
Donc c'est une vision d'unité, de paix et
Who else would like to speak to Question
Number 1?
18
Georges?
19
CO-CHAIR GEORGES ERASMUS:
In relation
20
to Question Number 1, could we get some ideas from people
21
whether they are looking at community structures or
22
regional structures or looking at a structure of government
23
that is larger than that?
We don't need great
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elaborations, we just want to have some of what people
2
are thinking about.
3
4
At the end of
the table?
5
HENRY WETELAINEN, First Vice President,
6
Ontario Métis Aboriginal Association:
I guess this is
7
some work that we have done on these elements already and
8
communities are going for a larger area, larger than the
9
community base.
It would be based upon traditional uses
10
of land in the area.
11
communities, the smaller communities.
12
must be aware of the facts that are affecting the government
13
that's operating in this country right now.
14
I am talking about our rural
I think that we
If you take Ontario, which has 800 and
15
some municipalities, they are over-governed right now.
16
They are looking at amalgamation of those systems.
17
I think if we start looking at that system as an ideal
18
system of government, that system is about to change.
19
The taxpayers just can't afford it.
20
is that we have included a number of communities in areas,
21
taken on a regional scope, and this has come from the
22
communities.
23
So, what we have done
We have done this in two areas.
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So,
I can't
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speak for all of the communities in Ontario, but I can
2
just speak for the ones that we have done some in-depth
3
work on.
4
communities, which comprises an area of approximately
5
3,500 square miles and includes about seven communities,
6
and these smaller communities would range in size from
7
about 200, 300, mostly being mixed.
8
Métis communities, some are mixed of Métis off reserve.
9
Those would be the eastern Lake Nipigon
Some are all pure
That's one of the experiences that we have.
10
We have set up regional corporations in
11
Ontario.
The regional corporations would be larger than
12
those community-based -- I look at it as a community-base,
13
not as, per se, a community of 250 people.
14
as sort of like an extended family that we have done in
15
that area that I am talking about as a 3,500 square mile
16
block.
I look at it
That was done on traditional use of land.
17
Thank you.
18
Anyone else?
19
RÉJAN PILOTE, (Vice-Président, Alliance
Go ahead.
20
autochtone du Québec):
Pour la nation métisse au Québec,
21
nous, on pense que toute nation est basée sur le peuple;
22
l'histoire d'une nation, c'est toujours l'histoire du
23
peuple.
Donc, c'est le fondement d'une nation.
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il y a aussi les structures communautaires et une structure
2
nationale, qui est la nation métisse au Québec.
3
Au niveau de cette structure
4
gouvernementale aussi on croit que chaque communauté doit
5
profiter des conseils des sages et des conseils des mères
6
et au niveau du grand conseil de la nation également.
7
Je voudrais juste rajouter également,
8
au sujet de tout ce qui s'est dit depuis ce matin, que
9
je crois qu'un des arguments qu'il faut rajouter à ce que
10
M. Aubin dit -- je veux peut-être mettre plus de force
11
dessus -- c'est que l'histoire métisse au Canada ne sera
12
jamais complète tant qu'on n'y inclura pas l'histoire des
13
Métis du Québec.
14
peu ce que M. Aubin a dit tout à l'heure.
Ça, c'est juste pour renforcer un petit
15
Je ne veux pas en dire plus, parce qu'on
16
a mentionné qu'on voulait être court sur nos interventions.
17
On va sûrement avoir l'occasion de revenir sur les autres
18
questions.
19
Would anyone
20
else like to speak to Question Number 1 or we will move
21
on?
22
Kirby?
23
KIRBY LETHBRIDGE, Labrador Métis
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Association:
2
the communities in Labrador and along the coast where most
3
of our members live, the communities have a history of
4
cooperative social structure and one thing that really
5
has caused our people to suffer is the idea that because
6
of some jurisdiction on an island hundreds of miles
7
away -- a city up in central Canada nearly thousands of
8
miles away had jurisdiction over our resources.
9
approach was to maximize profit for private enterprise.
10
I will keep it short.
I think, looking at
Their
That's never been the way of our people.
11
So, I think one thing that we would like
12
to see, one thing that we, from discussions that I have
13
had with people and from what I heard people put their
14
seal of approval on, is the development of community-owned
15
cooperatives rather than private enterprise.
16
17
Thank you,
Kirby.
18
Go ahead.
19
RICHARD LAFFERTY, Métis Nation N.W.T.:
20
With respect to Question 1, I am always perplexed by
21
questions like this because when you are speaking of a
22
nation, everybody has an idea of what a nation is and we
23
are calling ourselves a Métis nation.
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I mean a nation
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includes community-based government structures and when
2
you have a number of communities, that just logically
3
assumes that it's regional in scope.
4
As far as the Métis Nation of the
5
Northwest Territories is concerned, there is
6
community-based regional governments in a larger regional
7
context.
8
examples are everywhere.
9
community-based regional type of government.
So, there is two levels of regions there.
Canada is an example of a
We are
10
speaking of a nation here, not of little spotted
11
service-type organizations.
12
That's all I have.
13
14
The
Thank you.
Thank you,
Richard.
15
Why don't we move on to Question Number
16
2, if that's all right with everyone, and talk a bit about
17
preparations necessary towards the implementation of
18
self-government and some of the groundwork that perhaps
19
is necessary?
20
21
22
23
Who would like to begin talking about
what preparations are necessary?
RÉJAN PILOTE:
Go ahead.
Même si j'en ai glissé
un mot hier, la nation métisse au Québec voit
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l'implantation... nous croyons effectivement qu'il doit
2
y avoir une transition entre l'implantation d'un
3
gouvernement métis au Québec et sa mise en oeuvre ou sa
4
prise en charge de tous les dossiers qui ont trait à son
5
peuple.
6
Pour ça, nous avons déjà écrit et nous
7
voulons rencontrer le ministre des Affaires
8
intergouvernementales pour discuter des besoins de la
9
nation métisse au Québec.
Nous voulons mettre en oeuvre
10
un secrétariat de la nation métisse au Québec qui serait
11
chargé de consulter, d'informer et peut-être même
12
d'éduquer un peu les gens sur la belle histoire des Métis
13
au Québec.
14
recherches, parce qu'il y a beaucoup d'information qui
15
n'est pas disponible ou qui a été détruite dans divers
16
événements au Québec; toute l'histoire du Québec est très
17
peu connue à ce niveau-là.
18
C'est sûr qu'on devra mettre sur pied des
Nous devons également développer une
19
structure, la structure gouvernementale de la nation
20
métisse au Québec.
21
processus d'énumération et d'enregistrement des Métis,
22
nous devons être en mesure de monter des tables de
23
négociation et nous devons aussi avoir les moyens pour
Nous devons mettre sur pied un
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le faire.
2
Donc ça, c'est un petit peu le mécanisme
3
de transition pour la prise en charge des Métis par les
4
Métis.
5
aller de l'avant d'ici à l'automne... ou, en tout cas,
6
selon le livre rouge des Libéraux; je ne sais pas s'ils
7
vont passer de la parole à l'acte.
8
rouge du gouvernement fédéral, ils veulent aller de l'avant
9
dans la mise en oeuvre de l'autonomie gouvernementale des
10
Nous croyons que le gouvernement fédéral veut
Mais, d'après le livre
peuples autochtones.
11
Nous croyons que ça doit se faire à la
12
vitesse et dans la mesure où les Métis sont prêts à prendre
13
en charge les dossiers.
14
se faire un à un, avec toutes les recherches nécessaires
15
dans les divers dossiers qui vont être négociés.
16
ce qui est très, très important -- et je veux vraiment
17
mettre de l'emphase là-dessus -- c'est que le gouvernement
18
doit donner les moyens pour y arriver, et je crois que
19
les Métis ont beaucoup de chemin à rattraper pour arriver
20
à bon port.
21
22
23
Donc, moi, je pense que ça doit
that's very helpful.
Claude?
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CLAUDE AUBIN:
J'aimerais juste
2
rajouter ceci.
J'aimerais juste aviser la Commission
3
encore une fois que la nation métisse au Québec n'est pas
4
une entité reconnue.
5
présentement nous ne voulons pas... et nous vous avisons
6
que nous aimerions que vous négociez avec nous, que le
7
fédéral négocie avec nous plutôt que de négocier avec une
8
corporation de services, parce que l'on parle de deux
9
entités différentes.
Nous nous reconnaissons, mais
On parle d'un concept national,
10
l'autonomie gouvernementale nationale, versus un concept
11
d'autonomie gouvernementale corporative.
12
Donc, si vous dites, comme on nous dit
13
tout le temps, "L'Alliance autochtone du Québec est l'outil
14
avec lequel vous devez transiger", vous nous remettez
15
encore en arrière.
16
continuer, on va continuer pareil, ça va prendre plus de
17
temps, mais à la lueur de cette situation-là, je dois vous
18
aviser -- ce que M. Pilote a dit -- que ça se fait dans
19
un contexte de Métis, par des Métis, pour des Métis.
Ça n'empêche pas que nous, on va
20
Donc si, dans la question 2, vous nous
21
obligez à aller à des corporations de services et que vous
22
ne financez que des corporations de services -- comme
23
présentement il y a une consultation qui se fait au Québec
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à travers du financement du ministère des Affaires
2
intergouvernementales -- le fait métis va être noyé dans
3
ce concept global des Indiens hors réserve de l'Alliance
4
autochtone du Québec.
5
Merci.
6
7
Claude.
8
9
Thank you,
Would anyone else like to speak to
Question Number 2?
10
Go ahead.
ALBERT LaBLANCE, President,
11
Southhampton Métis & Aboriginal Association:
12
talking Métis self-government here, the First Nations are
13
talking self-government.
14
combined.
15
Métis, self-government with First Nations.
16
self-governments are we going to have?
17
have to be combined.
18
You are
Somewhere they have to be
You are talking about self-government with
How many
Somewhere they
Before they can be combined, I think that
19
the Aboriginal people have to have more respect for
20
themselves.
21
to make sure that they are clean from substance abuses.
22
We have to make sure that our children get educated because
23
this process will not work with an eighth grade education
We have to take care of our children, we have
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and willing to sit back and get a government cheque.
2
have to have people that are self-supporting, that do not
3
rely on government, and we must work with First Nations.
4
So, in order to talk self-government,
5
you have to have the federal, the provincial, First Nations
6
and the Métis all sit down and talk about it and all agree.
7
Until that day comes, I cannot see self-government working
8
because you have four factions of people that want power,
9
that are going to be fighting for that power, and they
10
We
must agree if that power is going to be given out.
11
Thank you.
12
13
RICHARD LAFFERTY:
Richard?
I would just like to
14
ask the previous speaker a question.
You are putting a
15
lot of prerequisites on developing Métis self-government.
16
It's my understanding that the reasoning behind pushing
17
for Métis self-government is to be able to be in control
18
and help our people in all their difficult problems, social
19
problems, cultural, genocide, whatever the case may be.
20
21
This is the whole reasoning for standing
22
up and fighting for self-government and with prerequisites
23
like this, I am wondering about how we are going to work
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with other types of governments.
2
too many prerequisites.
3
you mean by solving all these problems before anything
4
is initiated.
5
I think there are way
Maybe you could just explain what
ALBERT LaBLANCE:
I didn't say "solving
6
problems", I said talking about them, getting together,
7
understanding.
8
yourselves, self-government is not going to work and, let's
9
face it, Aboriginal people does include reserve Indians
If you are going to fight amongst
10
and at this stage I do not see reserve Indians talking
11
to us.
12
In Quebec they do not recognize Métis,
13
so what are you talking about?
In Quebec alone, the
14
provincial government does not talk to the Métis, the First
15
Nations does not talk to the Métis, the federal government
16
does talk to the Métis.
17
that only the federal government recognizes or do we have
18
a self-government that everybody recognizes?
19
everybody does not recognize each other's class or ability
20
or whatever, then it's not going to work.
So, do we have a self-government
I think if
21
Perhaps that's the lead that the federal
22
government has to put in, that First Nations, the federal
23
and the provincial governments all have to sit down and
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talk about self-government and get a framework or a motto
2
-- for this situation will work.
3
the first initiative ourselves and the First Nations people
4
and getting our people educated, getting our people so
5
they are no longer abusing chemicals to their body, getting
6
them educated.
7
But we also have to take
It's going to be a long process.
This
8
isn't going to happen next year or the year after.
9
get pride, it takes generations and I think our people
10
have to become proud first.
11
Thank you.
12
13
Mary and then
Martin.
14
15
To
COMMISSIONER MARY SILLETT:
Thank you
very much, Donavon.
16
I just want to say that I was very, very
17
interested in what you were saying because it's something
18
that we have heard from many, many people in our public
19
hearings, particularly women, saying that before
20
self-government becomes a reality, healing must begin in
21
our communities.
22
Also, we have heard the position that
23
Richard Lafferty has pointed out and then we have heard
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from other people that these processes are very, very long,
2
they are very long term.
3
long term, as is self-government, and those two processes
4
must go hand-in-hand.
For example, healing is very
5
I just wanted to say that I was very
6
interested in what you were saying and, as well, if we
7
can remember back to yesterday's session, I think we heard
8
the concern from many Métis women about the kinds of
9
difficulties that they are experiencing with their current
10
governments.
For that reason, we have heard many women
11
say that the reason that we are hesitant towards
12
self-government, for example, is because we are not
13
confident in the abilities of our current governments and,
14
with more power, what will that mean to us and our children.
15
So, I am personally a bit disappointed
16
that the Aboriginal women that spoke yesterday aren't here
17
to participate in some of these discussions, but I would
18
like to thank you both.
19
Thanks, Mary.
20
Martin?
21
MARTIN DUNN, Aboriginal Rights
22
Consultant:
Actually, picking up on the two previous
23
speakers, as I'm sure you are aware, the Native Council
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of Canada was involved in a massive urban study of six
2
cities, what the Aboriginal peoples, the off-reserve
3
Aboriginal peoples, at least in those cities, thought about
4
self-government.
5
I was involved in the editing of that
6
process, so I was going through a lot of the raw material
7
and I was astounded by the degree of suspicion in the
8
Aboriginal community about self-government and what that
9
might imply and it seemed to take two forms.
One form
10
was the one we have just heard, which says are we ready;
11
the other was does it mean that governmental systems that
12
we manage to escape by leaving the reserves are now going
13
to be moved into the cities and take us over.
14
So, there were two sets of fears out
15
there, both, from my own personal point of view, based
16
on ignorance of what was being proposed, at least at the
17
constitutional level in terms of both the 1983-87 process
18
and the Charlottetown process.
19
difficulties is where you begin in this whole process.
20
I remember Mr. Erasmus telling governments that no matter
21
how bad a job Aboriginal people did in governing
22
themselves, they couldn't possibly do any worse than what
23
white governments are doing for us now, and I take that
I think one of the
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as a base.
2
We can't do worse, so I don't think we
3
have to prove ourselves in the sense of education even,
4
but that's not to say that we -- well, let's put it this
5
way.
6
a national agenda item was in the constitutional process
7
as a technique for incorporating a number of issues that
8
no one wanted to deal with directly.
9
deal with the sense of sovereignty that some Aboriginal
10
11
I think the process by which self-government became
Nobody wanted to
peoples were bringing to the table.
So, instead of using the word
12
"sovereignty", they began to use the word "jurisdiction"
13
because that was less threatening, even though it meant
14
different things to either side.
"Jurisdiction" meant
15
sovereignty to Aboriginal people.
It didn't necessarily
16
mean sovereignty to some governments, so they were willing
17
to sit down and talk about jurisdiction, but they weren't
18
willing to sit down and talk about sovereignty, some
19
governments weren't.
20
As that process developed,
21
self-government became a panacea for addressing the
22
difficult issues and out of it came the idea, rightly or
23
wrongly, that if Aboriginal communities had the capacity
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to make decisions for themselves, a lot of these larger
2
issues of principle would resolve themselves in the process
3
of negotiation because each community, no matter how small
4
or how large, would negotiate it on the basis of what was
5
real for them, on what they needed, so that a very
6
traditional community would negotiate a form of government
7
or a model of government, if you like, very different than
8
an urban community might negotiate.
9
So, the problem then became how to
10
identify these communities and how to set up a mechanism
11
by which that process could begin, the process of
12
negotiating whatever forms of self-government might
13
ultimately exist.
14
agreement that we had the resolution for that.
15
I thought at least in the Charlottetown
Everybody agreed to it.
It's there.
The weakest link in that process
16
was how communities become eligible for negotiation and
17
that's the area in which Métis are very, very critically
18
positioned, negatively positioned you might say.
19
There is a huge infrastructure.
The
20
oldest bureaucracy on the face of the North American
21
continent, the Department of Indian Affairs, is prepared
22
to deal with their communities and "communities" to them
23
means "reserves".
You don't have to dig very deep behind
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the words they use to find out that's what "community"
2
means when the Department of Indian Affairs uses it.
3
Of course, outside the Department of
4
Indian Affairs there are large numbers of Aboriginal people
5
who are using that word in a very different way and, as
6
a result, a problem has been generated in that how do
7
governments recognize a Métis community.
8
a Métis community?
9
that they occupy more or less exclusively or it is 20,000
10
people in an area occupied by two or three million people?
11
That became a problem that we have to focus on in terms
12
What comprises
Is it 200 people in an exclusive area
of beginning.
13
Until we have a mechanism in place, and
14
by "we" again I mean Canadians have a mechanism in place,
15
to recognize or to create even eligibility criteria by
16
which communities can come forward and say, "We match the
17
criteria you have proposed and, therefore, you must begin
18
negotiations with us" -- that's basically what the
19
Charlottetown Accord said.
20
community was recognized, governments, provincial and
21
federal governments, were constitutionally committed to
22
begin a negotiation process to develop self-government
23
agreements.
It said that once our
I think that's still the stumbling block
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because the criteria for recognition of Aboriginal
2
communities has not been established.
3
There is a proposal by the NCC, which
4
I think was put before the Commission in other
5
circumstances, an Authorities Act, where the federal
6
government is being asked to pass legislation which will
7
in fact set up a kind of commission structure, which will
8
be able to receive applications from various communities
9
for recognition.
Some want recognition as bands.
Some
10
now currently off-reserve Bill C-31 communities want
11
recognition as bands under the Indian Act.
12
they want and they are entitled to that, if that's what
13
they want.
14
That's what
There are other communities who are
15
avoiding that like the plague.
They want independent
16
recognition in the sense of Métis settlements -- and that's
17
valid -- and there should be a mechanism by which those
18
communities can become recognized in the context that's
19
viable for them.
20
interest, that I have been calling them, at any rate, for
21
some years now, that should have the opportunity at least
22
to propose themselves as a community of interest that would
23
have decision-making capacity and perhaps even law-making
Then there are urban communities of
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capacity over specific areas of jurisdiction.
2
So, all of these things begin with a
3
mechanism by which Aboriginal communities can be
4
recognized as being eligible for negotiating
5
self-government.
6
it may take them 20 years to get through the negotiations;
7
if they are highly adept, it may take them six months.
8
9
If those communities are uneducated,
So, you have a leavening process or a
sorting-out process built right in at the beginning.
The
10
critical point, though, is how is this Commission or this
11
body, this Tribunal, or whatever phraseology you want to
12
attach to it, how is it created, what powers does it have,
13
and how do they determine the criteria for recognition.
14
15
I think that that's an area that the
16
Commission could well address itself to, in the sense of
17
examining the data that's come before them, to determine
18
what criteria would be most inclusive in terms of creating
19
the capacity for communities to apply for self-government
20
mechanisms and processes at whatever level and whatever
21
degree of complexity, some on the level of nation, if they
22
are prepared to do that, if the larger community is prepared
23
to do that, some on the level of municipality if that's
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as far as that community is able to go, some on the basis
2
of band if that's the perception that the people involved
3
have.
4
I think I will leave it at that for the
5
time being.
This will come up again, I think, in terms
6
of impediments and solutions.
7
8
Martin.
9
I have Mary and then Rock.
10
11
Thanks,
Thanks
again, Donavon.
12
I think I would just like to focus back
13
on the question of Number 2.
14
presentations, I did hear, for example, Richard talk about
15
there having been some progress with respect to the Métis
16
in the N.W.T. and I am just wondering, based on that
17
experience of the Métis in the Territories, do you have
18
any answers to this particular question?
19
Yesterday when I heard the
RICHARD LAFFERTY:
I can't say that I
20
have any answers because I don't believe any individual
21
does.
22
the Territories, that we have a table to develop a process.
23
But I believe, the way things are proceeding in
All we have is an initial table.
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begins.
2
the N.W.T.
3
sitting at that table with the President of the Métis
4
nation.
5
That's on a nation level, the Métis nation of
When we sit at that table, we have the regions
There are three regions not in claims,
6
not under self-government agreements already.
7
the North Slave, South Slave and the Deschot (ph) and each
8
one of those representatives from the regions is directed
9
by the communities in their region.
10
There is
So, I think what needs to be the process,
11
actually, is a political process first.
12
will for this Métis self-government has to be there, which
13
it seems to be in the Territories.
14
kick in in developing the political and the administrative
15
process is following.
16
believe, by the government person from Ontario that as
17
soon as there is political will and policy, financial and
18
administrative things kick in.
19
The political
The financial has to
It was stated before as well, I
The human resources have always been
20
there.
We have been working on a volunteer basis for 20
21
years and we are still, in most cases, working on a
22
volunteer basis on all levels.
23
now is something that will follow the political.
It's there.
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I don't see how come people get so mixed
2
up.
Maybe it's just because I have seen it from a different
3
angle or something, but I know in the provinces it's
4
different as well because you have a provincial government
5
which is apprehensive to Métis politics and that sort of
6
thing.
7
as soon as there is the political will.
But the process will take care of itself, I think,
8
9
Thanks,
Richard.
10
I have two speakers on Question Number
11
2 and then we would like to move on to Question Number
12
3.
13
Question Number 3.
So, Rock and then Kirby and then we will move on to
14
ROCK J. MATTE, Consultant:
I think some
15
of the points raised by Richard were very important and
16
valuable.
17
fundamental questions in regards to Number 2, which is,
18
as I read it, "What preparations are necessary towards
19
implementation of Métis self-government (legal,
20
political, financial, administrative, human resources)?"
21
Definitely -- and I think there is no
22
doubt about it, in my mind -- we have to have a sense of
23
ownership into what's going to be implemented out there.
As well, Kirby yesterday alluded to one of the
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If there is no sense of ownership, we are going to still
2
be watching the train go by.
We have and we must, as
3
people, have an input at all levels because for too long
4
we have watched the train go by.
5
In input I am not talking about one or
6
two or three people, I am talking about a vast consultation
7
about it, which is not a waste of time whatsoever, and
8
even if we don't put any more elements into it, at least
9
we have the feeling and the sense that we are putting our
10
input into it.
No process, I would believe, would have
11
less than 75 per cent, if not more, of Indian input, in
12
itself, which is not actually happening in this country.
13
So, the more we are going to be able to put an input into
14
it, the less we are going to have to waste time in trying
15
to implement something that we don't have a sense that
16
we had real input into.
17
I believe over the last 20 years, if we
18
look at an example that's not too far from the Canadian
19
experience in terms of a quest for self-government and
20
a quest for more autonomy, is the process under which the
21
province of Quebec went into it, under which it would have
22
been not acceptable for them as people, to have less than
23
50 per cent input in any policies touching that territory.
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2
So, if they had it and if we are talking
3
about a partnership as Métis people, we are obligated to
4
look into having a valuable input into it -- that's what
5
is the base of a partnership -- and before that happens,
6
we can't talk about partnership.
7
That's it.
8
9
A brief comment from Kirby and then we
10
Thanks, Rock.
will move on to Question 3.
11
KIRBY LETHBRIDGE:
One of the problems
12
that we have, I think probably the number one problem,
13
is who actually has jurisdiction and responsibility toward
14
Métis peoples.
15
certainly doesn't feel that they have any responsibility.
16
In actual fact, of course, he maintains that there are
17
18
We know that in our province Clyde Wells
no Métis people east of Hudson Bay.
So, I think the government needs to iron
19
out its problems first, the federal/provincial thing.
20
They need to get their heads together and to decide once
21
and for all that somebody has jurisdiction, who the hell
22
is it, and take your responsibilities seriously.
23
The other thing is finances.
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political institutions that are struggling along.
2
Richard said, volunteerism is a wonderful thing and an
3
honourable thing and you can't ask for much more from a
4
group of volunteers than what we get.
5
it makes life very difficult and it just creates animosity
6
among the people in the communities because everyone is
7
expecting so much more from a group of volunteers, which
8
is very unfair.
9
as a set-up to fail.
10
As
I will tell you,
It's almost as if it is being incorporated
I think that resources should be made
11
available for a gathering of the peoples in the
12
confederacy, resources to permit dialogue among our
13
peoples.
14
leaders, Métis women's groups, youth, and experts we
15
identify to assist us in rekindling and reactivating our
16
concepts of the way we relate to each other.
17
We would like to include elders, community
I also think that the government should
18
allow our people to present our choices, our community
19
choices, not some leader that's sold to us every four years
20
in provincial or federal politics, but for us to select
21
our own community leaders who are going to come forth to
22
take training, to do whatever is required.
23
You have to remember that in southern
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Labrador last year at the Combined Councils of Labrador
2
Annual General Meeting it was noted that 43 per cent of
3
the people in the provincial district that I come from
4
had less than a grade 9 education.
5
training dollars for our people.
6
think, that's a prerequisite to any sort of thing.
7
goes back to what you said.
So, we need real
That's one thing, I
It
8
I think they should also provide at this
9
point in time for a cultural exchange process among the
10
various Métis communities in the country, not make it an
11
east/west thing before we get out on the water.
12
That's all I want to say.
13
14
Thank you.
Thank you,
Kirby.
15
We will now move on to Question Number
16
3, if that's okay, because I know there are a couple of
17
people who would like to speak to that.
18
3 we are interested primarily in looking at the
19
implementation of self-government and the provision of
20
services.
21
In Question Number
As I said earlier, we have heard on the
22
Prairies Métis people say that self-government and the
23
provision of services ought to be on a Métis-only basis.
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We haven't heard that in other parts of the country.
2
So, we would like to talk a bit about that, the
3
implementation of self-government and how services should
4
be provided.
5
Included within that would be some
6
discussion on the priority areas of transfer, what are
7
the real areas that ought to be transferred to Métis
8
governments in the transition phase.
9
10
11
Would you like to begin at the end of
the table?
GREG SCHOFIELD, Board Member, Louis Riel
12
Métis Council, Surrey, British Columbia:
13
language spoken-no translation).
14
I would just like to begin with this morning along with
15
Question 3 is I just would like to kind of plant the seed
16
and leave you with a Cree word that, as Métis people, has
17
always been a very important word to us.
18
word is "katipaimsoochick".
19
that own themselves".
20
(Native
One of the things that
In Cree that
That word means "the people
We have always considered ourselves a
21
nation of people who own ourselves.
22
people who have had dealings with the federal and
23
provincial governments, we have been excluded from a lot
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of that process.
We have basically maintained our
2
lifestyle and our culture and our identity as Métis people,
3
so that word is very important to us.
4
Along the lines of service delivery with
5
the Louis Riel Métis Council, one of the things that we
6
are doing is we are providing, or trying to, with our
7
limited funding, which is annually about $5,000 a year,
8
to implement our services to our community people.
9
of the things that we are looking at and we put great
One
10
importance on is education, for one, and also with Métis
11
children and with family services and things like that.
12
Like I said, unfortunately, we have very little funding
13
to be, what I would have to say probably, extremely
14
successful with that.
15
I would just like to share a little bit
16
with the other representatives some of -- actually, I had
17
shared yesterday our perceptions on social services and
18
things like that within the communities.
19
what I will do is I will leave the discussion to begin
20
with somebody else and then I can just kind of pick up
21
and get my thoughts straightened out.
Actually, maybe
22
Thanks.
23
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a little bit of background on what we are trying to get
2
here?
3
-- we are trying to do a bit of a survey to see where people's
4
intentions are in relation to how services are going to
5
be delivered.
6
or not you have opinions on self-government.
7
already dealt with that.
8
9
The first part of the question, for us, is simply
In this case, we are not asking whether
We have
We are wanting to know whether you are
in support of institutions that are going to be
10
specifically run only by the Métis for the Métis -- for
11
instance, in downtown Vancouver or Victoria -- and
12
side-by-side there will be another program run for First
13
Nation people or do you see something worthwhile in merging
14
the two and having a delivery system that perhaps benefits
15
by economies of scale and delivers services to all
16
Aboriginal people in the area, make sure that the
17
institution is going to deliver the service, is organized
18
in a way in which it's sensitive to everyone, or do you
19
want your own institutions to run that?
20
behind the status blind or Métis-specific.
That's what's
21
Then later on perhaps we can get into
22
the priority issues on transfer of authority, which areas
23
you want to grab onto first.
But for us it's important
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to get a reading on this because what we heard in the
2
Prairies was a fairly strong suggestion that the Métis
3
wanted to run their own services in that area.
4
quite hear it like that in places like British Columbia
5
and Ontario and Quebec when we were holding hearings, so
6
this is what we are trying to get a feel for here first.
7
Thanks.
8
9
We didn't
Go ahead, and
then Claude.
10
BERNIE HEARD, Labrador Métis
11
Association:
12
Labrador we have three Aboriginal groups.
13
Innu Nation, we have the Inuit Association and we have
14
the Métis Association.
15
areas.
16
services should be a joint venture between all three
17
groups.
18
Speaking specifically for Labrador, in
We have the
All three are in distinct land
However, our feeling is that the delivery of
That's our opinion.
We already feel that the Inuit and the
19
Innu Nation in fact do accept us as a third Aboriginal
20
group, even though the provincial government does not.
21
The other Aboriginal groups appear to.
22
on certain things already.
23
triplication of services, we would much rather see it as
We work together
Rather than a duplication or
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a joint effort.
2
Thank you.
3
4
This
gentleman and then Claude.
5
ROY CARDINAL, Native Council of Canada
6
(Alberta):
I would like to talk on Number 3,
7
implementation of self-government and delivery of
8
services.
9
should we run our services, like in the cities and towns,
Georges Erasmus, I guess, asked us about how
10
but I think that question is:
11
our lives?
Should welfare keep running
That's how I seem to understand the question.
12
What I would like to say is that section
13
91(24) states that the Aboriginal and Métis are included
14
in the Constitution and, under section 35(1), The
15
Aboriginal and Métis -- I would like to include "Métis"
16
also there -- have the right to assume control over its
17
own affairs within the core areas of Aboriginal
18
jurisdiction at its own initiative and without necessarily
19
waiting for intergovernmental agreements.
20
Therefore, for many Métis people,
21
self-government will have little authentic or no meaning
22
without secure long-term fiscal arrangements, as well as
23
increased access to lands and resources to allow for
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greater self-sufficiency because we are not talking just
2
about cities and towns, we are talking about a people who
3
are living on their own land.
4
The abstract power of self-government
5
is an empty vessel without the material ability to carry
6
on the normal functions of a modern government and an
7
adequate land and resource base to cope with current and
8
future populations.
9
processes that accompanied colonization, many Aboriginal
10
and Métis peoples have been deprived of their original
11
lands and means of livelihood and confined to small areas
12
with little economic potential.
As a result of the historical
13
Therefore, I would like to remind the
14
Royal Commission to make a recommendation, as they have
15
been making recommendations, to make their recommendation
16
to the federal and provincial governments that the federal
17
and provincial governments have that responsibility, the
18
fiduciary responsibility to ensure that the land and
19
resource bases of Aboriginal and Métis people are enhanced
20
and, further, that sufficient financing be available to
21
allow services to be provided at levels comparable to those
22
in other parts of Canada.
23
The point here is we need a land base
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and resource base and the financing to be able to do our
2
own services.
3
4
Thank you.
Thank you
very much.
5
We have less than 15 minutes, if you
6
could make your comments brief, because I do have a number
7
of speakers.
8
Go ahead, Claude.
9
CLAUDE AUBIN:
To answer to the question
10
in a very specific manner, si on prend pour acquis, par
11
exemple, que l'implantation de l'autonomie
12
gouvernementale veut dire que déjà on accepte qu'il y a
13
une entité gouvernementale, présentement c'est difficile
14
de répondre à la question parce que les Métis au Québec
15
-- je suis obligé de parler du Québec -- nous vivons une
16
expérience épouvantable dans le contexte des Chemins de
17
la réussite, puisqu'on se sert de ce terme "status blind".
18
À l'intérieur de ça les Premières
19
Nations ont décidé, dans la refonte de la distribution
20
des services, que seuls ceux qui étaient des Métis statués
21
pouvaient avoir des services.
22
présentement, dans les Chemins de la réussite, les Métis
23
ne sont pas desservis.
Donc au Québec
Donc il va falloir approcher ça
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très prudemment.
2
en autant que c'est bien défini qu'un regroupement pour
3
donner des services à l'ensemble de tous les autochtones...
4
il va falloir s'assurer du respect des Métis et que les
5
Métis ne commencent pas encore à se faire questionner à
6
tout bout de champ, et que les Premières Nations ne
7
définiront pas qui sont les Métis, parce que c'est ce qui
8
se passe présentement, malheureusement.
9
"Status blind" va peut-être s'appliquer
On doit aussi réfléchir de la
10
possibilité de le faire par Métis, entre Métis.
11
sont aussi très réalistes.
12
réalité-là, il y a des possibilités que certaines
13
livraisons de services puissent se faire conjointement
14
avec les Premières Nations.
15
choses que nous devrons retenir pour nous-mêmes.
16
dans ce contexte-là, tout se négocie, tout se discute entre
17
autochtones, et non pas imposé.
18
Les Métis
Je pense que, dans cette
Mais il y a certainement des
Si c'est
J'aimerais rajouter ceci -- et je parle
19
pour quelqu'un d'autre qui est assis à l'arrière -- je
20
voudrais juste donner un commentaire d'une minute.
21
voulait que je vous dise que le processus de guérison des
22
Métis entre Métis, ça peut seulement se faire parmi les
23
Métis.
Il
Donc c'était juste un commentaire qu'il voulait
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vous donner tout à l'heure.
2
Merci.
3
4
5
6
7
Thank you,
Claude.
Go ahead.
There is time for both of you.
So, why don't you go first.
RÉJAN PILOTE:
Je voulais dire que
8
Claude a très bien répondu à une partie de la question
9
pour les Métis du Québec.
C'est qu'un des fondements de
10
ce problème-là que vivent les Métis au Québec est le fait
11
qu'assez souvent on associe présentement prise en charge
12
de certains dossiers avec la nomination de diverses
13
associations qui participent à diverses commissions sur
14
divers comités, et que le membership d'une association
15
peut toujours être critiqué ou être questionné, mais que
16
la citoyenneté d'un individu qui appartient à une nation
17
ne peut être critiquée et ne peut être questionnée.
18
Tant que cette question d'autonomie
19
gouvernementale tournera alentour, je crois... je parle
20
pour le Québec; je ne veux pas entrer dans d'autres
21
questions de d'autres régions.
22
alentour d'associations qui ont des intérêts des fois
23
autres que de défendre leur population, je pense qu'on
Mais tant que ça tournera
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va toujours tourner alentour du problème et qu'on ne
2
réglera jamais la question ou qu'on n'apportera jamais
3
de solution à ce problème.
4
Donc, si on parle de gouvernement, on
5
parle donc de nation, on parle donc de contrôle par la
6
population des services qui sont donnés.
7
que certains apportent des fois la livraison de services
8
basée sur des institutions autochtones... je crois que
9
tous les gens ont droit à leur opinion, mais je pense qu'à
10
plusieurs endroits au Québec, plusieurs institutions au
11
Québec et au Canada ont des problèmes parce que ces
12
institutions-là sont contrôlées par des individus et en
13
fonction des besoins de quelques individus au lieu du
14
besoin collectif de la population.
15
Je pense aussi
Je pense que la nation métisse au Québec
16
n'a pas l'intention d'appuyer le développement de
17
l'autonomie gouvernementale basée sur des institutions.
18
La population de la nation métisse au Québec est prêt
19
à collaborer dans la livraison de services dans les grands
20
centres urbains peut-être avec d'autres peuples
21
autochtones, mais ne le fera sûrement pas tant qu'on n'aura
22
pas une garantie que les argents ou les budgets qui seront
23
établis en fonction des services dans les grands centres
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urbains seront faits sur une base de poids démographique
2
des différentes nations et participants et avec le contrôle
3
et le respect des besoins des individus qui font partie
4
de différentes nations.
5
Le contexte urbain est un contexte, je
6
crois, qui est très particulier.
C'est différent des
7
milieux ruraux.
8
autochtones en milieu urbain et on laisse de côté les
9
autochtones en milieu rural, mais je pense qu'il faut
Souvent on entend parler seulement des
10
prendre ça dans le contexte global d'une nation avec
11
différentes réalités.
12
Moi, je crois que si la Commission peut
13
faire des recommandations dans ce sens-là, je pense que
14
peut-être qu'on va pouvoir commencer à discuter de
15
solutions plutôt que de discuter de problèmes.
16
Thank you.
17
We have time for about two more speakers.
18
BRUNO MEILLEUR, porte-parole, Alliance
19
autochtone du Québec:
20
c'est la première fois que je parle dans tout ça.
21
Je ne suis pas un grand orateur;
Je veux dire que l'implantation de
22
self-government, pour moi... je regarde le peuple.
23
parle d'organismes, on parle de ci, on parle de ça.
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faut revenir au peuple.
2
Je vais vous parler de mon expérience,
3
moi.
Je vis dans une région rurale.
Depuis 20 ans on
4
fait partie d'organismes politiques et ainsi de suite,
5
et, quand on a entendu parler d'autonomie gouvernementale,
6
pour nous autres ça voulait dire que pour une fois on
7
pouvait prendre le contrôle de notre destinée et de se
8
faire reconnaître pour ce qu'on est en tant que personnes.
9
Je peux vous dire qu'on vit dans des communautés mixtes,
10
mais le fait métis dans nos communautés n'est pas d'égal
11
à égal avec le reste de l'autre population.
12
Ce qui m'a poussé, moi, à aller vers une
13
nation, c'est qu'on a besoin de ça pour garantir que pour
14
une fois on va être respecté.
15
pose, moi, c'est comment sérieux est le gouvernement de
16
vouloir nous accorder l'autonomie gouvernementale.
17
pense au peuple.
18
Les questions que je me
Je
Je regarde ce qui se passe dans nos
19
écoles, pour nos enfants, notre culture.
Il n'y a rien
20
qui pousse là.
21
culture québécoise bien souvent, et de partout.
22
soit dans la livraison des services sociaux, au niveau
23
du développement économique, on se fait toujours
On est Métis mais on doit vivre selon la
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"barouetter" de part et d'autre.
2
L'ultime de ça, ça a été quand le
3
gouvernement à un moment donné a annoncé le programme des
4
Chemins de la réussite.
5
a fait des rencontres.
6
une fois, à travers les comités de gestion locale, on aurait
7
eu une chance de prendre nos affaires en main.
8
qu'est-ce qui est arrivé?
9
finales, quand on vient pour séparer le gâteau, on décide
10
On a travaillé bénévolement, on
On avait grand espoir que pour
Mais
À la table des négociations
que seulement les statués auront droit.
11
Dans le fond de mon coeur, moi, je vois
12
mon peuple, puis il pleure, mon peuple, il est en
13
souffrance.
14
essaie de commencer le processus.
15
être capable de retourner à nos valeurs culturelles
16
traditionnelles.
17
regroupement nationale qu'on va être capable de faire ça
18
en ce qui me concerne.
19
Quand on parle de healing, de guérison, on
Mais pour ça, il faut
C'est seulement à travers un
Pour la livraison de services, c'est
20
tout ce qu'on regarde, de quelle manière moi, je peux venir
21
en aide à mon peuple.
22
moi, ça va être des mécanismes, des outils par lesquels
23
une fois, finalement, on va être capable de se développer
L'autonomie gouvernementale, pour
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dans ce que nous sommes, avec une reconnaissance.
2
On parle premièrement d'un partenariat.
3
C'est certain que si on va vers une nation, notre premier
4
interlocuteur, c'est le gouvernement fédéral.
5
certain que si on parle de partenariat, il faut s'asseoir
6
avec la province et parler avec la province.
7
implique aussi qu'on veuille bien faire cela.
8
9
C'est
Mais ça
Comme je dis, l'important, c'est le
peuple.
Il faut retourner au peuple.
On part avec la
10
nation, mais la nation va juste être là si le peuple est
11
là.
12
que dans la province de Québec la culture ne fait pas partie
13
du curriculum d'enseignement?
14
soit tous les services qui sont livrés dans le moment,
15
quand est-ce que vous entendez parler qu'on consulte les
16
Métis?
17
autochtones, il parle des réserves, il ne parle pas des
18
Métis.
19
la différence.
20
Et il faut retourner à la culture.
Pourquoi est-ce
C'est certain que, que ce
Le gouvernement du Québec, quand il parle des
Regardez bien.
C'est pour ça qu'il faut faire
Je pense que notre expérience de
21
corporation qui englobe tous les autochtones hors réserve
22
ne pourra pas rencontrer les besoins des Métis.
23
que ce soit spécifique à chacun, dans le respect de chacun,
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de ce que nous sommes.
2
On le dit, j'ai une croyance... on se
3
rejoindra un bon jour peut-être dans la grande
4
confédération, mais ce jour-là est encore loin.
5
travaille tous vers ça.
6
Je vous remercie.
7
8
On
Thank you
very much.
9
Unfortunately, we have run out of time.
10
We are going to take a 15-minute coffee break and come
11
back at 10:45 for Women and Community Decision-Making.
12
I would like to thank you all very much for your comments.
13
It was a good session, thank you.
14
--- Short recess at 10:30 a.m.
15
--- Upon resuming at 11:00 a.m.
16
MODERATOR KAREN COLLINS, Senior Policy
17
Analyst, Policy & Planning:
Good morning, everyone.
I
18
will be your moderator for this portion of your circle.
19
20
I would invite all of the Métis women
21
that are in the hallway to please join us at the table.
22
23
This session this morning, as you note
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by your program, is with respect to Métis women and
2
community decision-making.
3
speak directly to my Métis sisters that were with us
4
yesterday afternoon, but I understand there is an
5
Aboriginal Justice and Women's Conference that is
6
happening today and I believe that many of those delegates
7
are attending there this morning.
8
9
I had initially planned to
As a Métis woman myself, I wish they
could have made some time to join us for this portion of
10
the meeting.
I think it's very, very important.
The
11
Commission has heard in its rounds of hearings and in
12
written submissions that there are some concerns of Métis
13
women across the country with respect to their
14
participation or lack of participation in the whole process
15
of self-government and I would have liked to have seen
16
the delegates here to contribute.
17
conference, but if they would have mentioned something
18
yesterday, I'm sure we could have accommodated the agenda
19
to have their participation.
I was not aware of the
20
I would invite all of the participants
21
that are here to -- I know that in your community gatherings
22
the women at that level have probably -- not probably,
23
they have -- spoken up and have voiced their concerns to
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you at your community level, so I am very confident that
2
you gentlemen around this table can bring forth their
3
comments and concerns, as well as the comments and concerns
4
that have been raised at your communities, at your regional
5
level, at your provincial level, that have been forwarded
6
by the youth and, as well, by elders.
7
I think what I will do is follow the same
8
pattern as Donavon did and perhaps guide us through these
9
four questions and have some discussion around each of
10
the questions and invite you gentlemen to bring forward
11
your comments.
12
British Columbia who, I am sure, would like to speak.
13
With that, gentlemen, start your engines.
I know we have one delegate with us from
14
Rhonda?
15
RHONDA JOHNSON, United Native Nations:
16
Thank you.
Although I am a Métis woman, I absolutely
17
cannot speak on behalf of other Métis women and you are
18
quite correct in saying that the women who were here
19
yesterday would have been the appropriate women to sit
20
here and speak because they are the Métis women leaders
21
from across Canada.
22
for Métis women.
23
I am not a leader, so I can't speak
I think, however, the fact that those
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women aren't here answers most of your questions.
They
2
weren't here as participants, to begin with.
3
only, I think, two women's names on the participants list,
4
or perhaps even three; I'm not sure.
5
your question.
6
a rare occurrence for Métis women.
7
continually across Canada within our own circles with the
8
government.
9
yesterday to understand.
There were
That could answer
This is not five out of 20.
This is not
This happens
We only have to look at ourselves today and
10
Nonetheless, I will talk about what I
11
faced as a Métis woman and what some of the major issues
12
were for myself.
Poverty; that's a big one.
13
extreme poverty.
Violence; we face extreme violence.
14
These are things that I myself have personally experienced
15
and I have no doubt that most Métis women have as well.
16
Sexual assault; it's a significant issue.
We face
The ability
17
to care for our children is a significant issue.
18
ability to be heard, for someone to listen to us, is a
19
significant issue.
20
The
I woke up to a dream this morning and
21
this touches a little bit on children.
22
children.
23
experiencing an identity crisis.
I have my own
My daughter is 17 and she's currently
She's not sure where
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she fits.
There is nothing in the school system for her.
2
When she was learning about history, she learned that
3
the Métis people gave up their script because they were
4
drunks.
5
horrified.
6
schoolteacher, who I thought should have known more at
7
this point in time.
That was taught in the curriculum and I was
I had to raise the issue with the
8
9
This is 1994.
This is shameful.
My daughter learns more about Indian
ways than she does about anything else and this confuses
10
her badly, too.
She doesn't know if her greatest
11
aspiration is to be a wise old Indian woman or a wise old
12
Métis woman because she is not sure where she fits.
13
have many nieces, little ones to big ones, and all of my
14
sisters -- I have many sisters -- are working full time
15
and attempting to care for their children at the same time.
I
16
17
The reason I mention the dream is because
18
I woke up this morning to a dream and in this dream I was
19
a caretaker for children and I was waiting for these two
20
little kids to come.
21
a little boy and a little girl.
They were two little Métis kids,
22
I got up in the morning and the children
23
weren't there, they hadn't come, so I waited for half an
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hour and all of a sudden the little girl showed up outside
2
my door and she was crying.
3
why are you crying, and where is your little brother?"
4
She said, "My brother is in a crisis centre.
5
there last night and I don't know how to get him and I
6
don't know where my Mom is and I don't know where my Dad
7
is."
8
9
I said, "What's the matter,
He was left
I think that speaks to just some of the
issues that Métis women and children face.
I don't think
10
this is news to the Commission, I don't think this is news
11
to anybody.
12
I hate to answer all of these questions.
13
I wish there were other Métis women, and perhaps there
14
are, but I would like to take a stab at the third question.
15
I can't answer Question 2 because I will just get sarcastic
16
and that's not appropriate.
17
What steps should be taken to ensure the
18
active participation of Métis women and youth -- and I'm
19
not sure, are there any youth here today; I don't think
20
so -- in self-government structures?
21
children and no money and we can't be heard, I think it's
22
real easy.
23
be involved, make sure that we can have the day care that
Well, if we have
You just make sure that we have the money to
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we need to be involved, and make sure that when we are
2
involved we are heard.
3
Who is responsible for taking those
4
steps?
I would suggest our male leaders are responsible
5
for taking those steps.
6
trying.
7
The women are trying, have been
How do I think the Commission could be
8
most helpful?
I'm hesitant to say that the Commission
9
can do anything that would enable the male Métis leaders
10
to listen to us and to include us.
I'm not sure that the
11
Commission can do something like that and I don't think
12
it's appropriate for the Commission to make that kind of
13
a recommendation, either, because as a self-governing
14
people we have our own house that we have to clean up.
15
What the Commission could do, however,
16
is send some instructions to government bodies about the
17
appropriateness of funding allocations that the government
18
gives out when it comes to listening to the views of Métis
19
people, which predominantly are Métis women who are mostly
20
never seen or heard.
21
I perhaps think that there is some
22
responsibility on the people who are making funding
23
decisions to ensure that when organizations -- and I'm
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not talking government structures, but I am talking about
2
organizations who are moving towards developing government
3
structures -- are receiving money for a purpose, one of
4
those purposes being to ensure that women's voices are
5
being heard in the development.
6
to do on the government's part.
7
8
That's a simple thing
I don't think I have much else to say.
Thank you.
9
ANNE ACCO:
10
translation).
11
of corralled, of course, so
12
somewhere in this group.
(Native language spoken-no
The questions that are before us are kind
13
there must be a cowboy
The major issues for Métis women are,
14
one, the whole thing has to become inclusive.
15
be exclusive of.
16
have lived 18 years in Quebec, I have lived abroad, and
17
what I see is an entirely racist, absolutely devoted to
18
-- governments that are absolutely devoted to hanging on
19
to every bit of control, even as they are going down.
20
They will diffuse us, confuse us, miscue us, and we all
21
have to be aware of that.
22
23
It cannot
I will be 54 years old this year.
I
I am a critic of the Commission, not
because I choose it but because I am a writer.
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why I choose to be a writer is because I come from a people
2
who are the keepers of the words, keepers of the words
3
of the Cree language.
4
formal Aboriginal common law process.
5
as early as 1892 in my community.
6
grandmother lost all her land in three places, struck off.
7
We were landless.
8
The Cree language allows us logical,
We were denied that
In one day my great
That's the area I come from.
My father was Pierre Carrière.
When he
9
was doing Métis work, he used to travel with two dollars
10
on the railway to go to Regina, to lobby for everything
11
that a peoples needed.
12
visited every Aboriginal person over 100 years, especially
13
on the Prairies, these were measures that were taken.
14
Whether they were taken by one person, there was always
15
the privy council there and there was always a prime
16
minister willing to come forward and sign the process or
17
the procedure or whatever you want.
18
The cultural genocide that has
We are speaking from oppression and we
19
are addressing the tools of oppression.
20
all.
21
its ass and look at the cultural genocide and begin to
22
be respectable.
23
We can list them
What the government has to do is literally get off
We are a G7 nation, we are part of NATO.
We are part of NATO because we ripped off the Innu, we
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are part of the G7 nation because we had oil.
2
off the Northwest Territories.
3
We ripped
May I go on?
What we have to do, then -- why is there
4
a question that the Métis women have to be involved?
Are
5
they not involved?
6
involved.
7
level or -- let me tell you something, my throwbacks are
8
Métis.
9
"Oops, see the Métis."
At the clan level, we are always
What we are not involved with is the tribal
I have six children, but I look at them and I say,
10
I am a mixed blood.
When we go back and say, "Number 2 should
11
have never been asked", you should assume the work was
12
already done at the grassroots level and at the community
13
level.
14
through a big grapevine, the Métis women from Saskatchewan
15
were wondering why they were not part of this.
16
like to know the technical process by which they were not
17
involved.
I am here today because, apparently, I heard
18
I would
That's the critical part.
The other part, what steps should be
19
taken to ensure the active participation of youth, elders
20
and women in Métis self-government structures, you must
21
put money where your mouth is.
22
in this process or you are just diddling or you are playing
23
the fiddle.
Either you don't believe
I don't know what's going on.
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This question; there should be active
2
participation with cash.
3
are done with layers of white reports that were done before
4
and all the information is gleaned from there.
5
the Commission is accepting these as bona fide research
6
work or there is not a control mechanism within the
7
Commission to see that people are doing their field
8
research.
9
10
Some of the reports I am seeing
Either
Field research is paramount in this process.
Elders?
Of course, they have to be
involved.
11
Self-government structures.
12
Self-government structures start with the grassroots.
13
In 1948, James Brady did what I call the one-on-one
14
education.
15
man and the woman of the house.
16
education we need right now.
17
distinction in the kind of information men or women get.
18
19
20
He came into our communities, he educated the
This is the kind of
There should be no
We have to "ungenderfy" our information.
Each must know
what is happening in the other's camp.
The Commission can be most helpful by
21
absolutely being honest about their role.
22
part of a co-opted information train with the federal
23
government pulling all kinds of invisible strings, because
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this can happen when you are getting to the point where
2
you are really burnt out.
3
being burnt out?
4
hearing.
5
Have you taken the time to stop
These are terrible things you have been
You must go on in this process to be
6
responsive at the grassroots level and I think you have
7
been to some point, but something has gone wrong.
8
Native researchers, at some point, we are going to find
9
that out because the truth rises and you don't want to
10
be embarrassed by ever having been on this Commission.
11
Thank you very much.
12
MODERATOR KAREN COLLINS:
13
As
(Native
language spoken-no translation).
14
Go ahead.
15
GREG SCHOFIELD:
Before I turn my chair
16
over to the Métis women that have just shown up here, which
17
I am really grateful for, I just want to highlight a few
18
points.
19
I know that this discussion is dedicated
20
to the Métis women in the room, but before I turn my chair
21
over to Bernice, I would just like to add simply that,
22
as a Métis man -- and I hope that this would be endorsed
23
by every Métis man in this room -- we seem to forget that
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our historical nation has been built by our foremothers
2
and our grandmothers, that they have retained the language,
3
they have retained the stories and the culture of our
4
people, and without them we would be nationless.
5
be cultureless, we would be languageless.
6
be a distinct nation of people.
We would not
7
I just wanted to say that.
8
9
We would
Thank you.
I welcome the
Métis women to the table.
10
Go ahead, Marge.
11
MARGE FREIDEL, President, National
12
Métis Women of Canada:
I apologize to everyone here for
13
being late for this part of the consultation.
14
really that I am boycotting that we only get to speak for
15
one hour and 15 minutes in this whole two days, we are
16
also in a consultation with the Department of Justice going
17
on at the same time this meeting was.
18
unfortunate that they both had to be at the same time,
19
but we are part of that delegation as well.
20
that you saw here yesterday are all at that consultation
21
and they won't be here today.
It's not
It was very, very
The women
22
I think that I, first of all, want to
23
dwell upon the things that have gone on within the Métis
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community, where, for a very, very long time, the Métis
2
women's voices have been silent.
3
blaming anyone else, but sometimes, because of the
4
oppression that Métis women have faced for a long, long
5
time, they have not been able to speak and because of the
6
dysfunctions that are in the communities, it seems that
7
it affects the women a lot more.
8
oppression that all of our people have been through seems
9
to impact more on women and women are not always able to
10
I'm not necessarily
The effects of the
speak of all these things.
11
As I said yesterday, it is my belief
12
that, first of all, women must be at the table for any
13
discussions on self-government.
14
table for any of the problems because we are part and parcel
15
of the whole community.
16
the nurturers, we bring life to the next generations, and
17
I think it's time that women got up from where they are,
18
from the violence that they face, from the place in our
19
communities that they have, and it's time that they started
20
to speak.
21
They have to be at the
We are the care-givers, we are
But, more importantly, I think that
22
everyone else has to show respect to these women and start
23
to listen.
They might say some things that we don't agree
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with or that we don't like to hear -- it's not that we
2
don't agree with them, but we might not like to hear it
3
-- but I think that they are things that need to be said.
4
We need healing, not only for the women
5
but the whole entire community needs to be healed from
6
some of these dysfunctions that go on, and we need to be
7
at the table so that our voices can be heard and that you
8
listen because we will help solve the problems.
9
we can do these things.
Together
10
If we are going to be on opposing ends,
11
then most of our time will be spent in a conflict, rather
12
than working together because what we do today is going
13
to reflect upon my children, your children, my
14
grandchildren and your grandchildren.
15
future Métis people and we don't really want things to
16
continue on in the way that they have over the last century.
17
So, we have to start somewhere and we have to start working
18
19
20
21
These are the
together.
I will let Bernice talk about some of
the things that are going on in the communities.
Just before
22
you go on, I would remind you that we have some guiding
23
questions that our Commissioners are quite interested in
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hearing from Métis women with respect to self-government
2
and all of the process, but I also wanted to add that,
3
in my experience working at the Commission, the women's
4
team, I think, still is looking for more input and more
5
direction and more from Métis women.
6
We are lacking some in that area, if you
7
could provide and maybe keep in the back of your mind some
8
of the other points of the Commission's mandate.
9
you have anything that you want to add to any of those
So, if
10
points of the mandate that are solution-oriented and that
11
will provide information from a Métis woman's perspective,
12
I would invite you to also do that so that it will be more
13
food for thought for the Commissioners.
14
Thanks.
15
BERNICE HAMMERSMITH:
Good morning.
I
16
apologize as well.
17
this morning.
18
afternoon.
19
of the day they might be able to interject at different
20
parts to discuss the things with you.
21
We have been at a different meeting
Some of the women are coming over here this
They were under the understanding that part
I just want to tell you about our
22
experience yesterday.
They left here with a bit of disgust
23
yesterday -- the Métis women, that is -- because two things
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happened here yesterday.
2
to get the attention of the Chair and many times didn't
3
and had to use whoever was beside them to do that.
4
They said that they were trying
So, they said they would not
5
participate again at that level, basically because at least
6
three of them never got acknowledged yesterday and, second,
7
it was just a slap in our face not to even get invited
8
for supper after we thought we had participated in your
9
consultation.
Our Métis tradition is we feed our people
10
before we ask them to do anything for us, seeing as they
11
are our visitors, and we thought we were yours, seeing
12
as you are situated out of here.
13
In any case, after having looked at this
14
booklet that you gave us yesterday, which only one of us
15
got, by the way, and we were asked to seriously look at
16
these four questions.
17
document because only one of us was registered, as you
18
said, when we asked to stay and eat with you because lots
19
of things get happening when you eat with people, a
20
different level of communication.
21
Only one of us got the actual
In any case, after looking at these
22
issues, this one in particular, "What are the major issues
23
for Métis women, youth and Elders in your communities",
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first of all, I think there is a big assumption here that
2
these are all connected issues.
3
elders in our communities are males -- I'm not saying they
4
are not good because they are males -- and youth is another
5
issue as well.
6
old ones, however we have issues that are related to women
7
as well, specifically to women.
8
9
10
I know that many of the
Maybe we talk about our children and our
We argued yesterday that we could
probably talk on all issues regarding the Métis nation.
However, there are some that are specific to us.
So,
11
I only beg that when you ask us questions, they be related
12
to the issues that -- we may include youth, we may include
13
elders, we also include a definition of who is a Métis
14
and many other things like land and resources that we want
15
to discuss.
16
One of the things that maybe is a major
17
issue for many of our women is the fact that we have little
18
or no input into the structure of our organizations; no
19
input.
20
that we do want a place there to speak, many times are
21
asked, first of all, as in your situation -- and one of
22
them complained a lot yesterday that when we want to have
23
our voices finally heard -- and Marge is correct about
As a matter of fact, many of us, when we decide
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not being able to have that accessibility before purely
2
because of finances.
3
Your Commission has a set of guidelines
4
that have been established for the last three years or
5
however long it was, which none of us fit in that criteria
6
because our organizations have never had a women component
7
in it.
8
which was men.
It basically was representative of the nation,
9
Good for them that they all got elected.
10
However, we were only being represented through the Native
11
Women of Canada up to a short while ago and through the
12
Native Women of Canada we became more an auxiliary group,
13
an auxiliary group that would maybe make some reaction
14
to each of our nations, whether it be AFN or FSIN in our
15
communities, and then we would make our plight to them.
16
17
As a group of women -- and it could be
18
Métis, it could be Treaty, it could be Inuit, it could
19
be even Polynesian in some cases have come to our tables
20
and said, "We are not being treated fairly."
21
and make some initiation to talk to the different groups
22
of people that we felt were responsible for some of the
23
issues that the women brought up.
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However, they were under no obligation
2
to listen to us.
3
with the community people at the community level to
4
basically organize them to attack our own nations because
5
that is where we felt that we were not being treated
6
properly.
7
So, we felt that we should maybe work
It was good that we could get Treaty
8
women to help us or Inuit women to come and help us, but
9
mostly they were shut out.
Not only were we shut out in
10
those rooms as Métis women and part of our nations, but
11
they shut out other women because they were Treaty or
12
because they were some other category of government that
13
would not allow them into the room.
14
That happened when we went with them to
15
NYAC, with NYAC women, and said that we were not being
16
heard in our different nations.
17
come there because we are Métis."
18
and on and on.
They said, "Well, we can't
The excuses went on
That's an issue for us, a very major issue.
19
We, during the constitutional talks,
20
decided that we would work and try to work within our
21
nation.
22
we will support the Native women's stand that they are
23
not having a position at the table.
As Marge was saying earlier, we even said, "Fine,
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that ours, at least in the Métis nation, has our input",
2
and it had, to some degree.
3
It was a battle of ourselves just being
4
able to get into the room and to discuss that and be able
5
to say that, yes, we felt that our issues were going to
6
be addressed by this group of people at the national level.
7
However, many women still did not feel that that was
8
adequate and stayed with the Native Women of Canada and
9
continued on with making that issue a bigger one and taking
10
it to court.
11
How are Métis women involved in and
12
represented in decision-making at the community level?
13
As far as I can tell in our communities in Saskatchewan,
14
the leaders are the women.
15
our locals, they are the secretaries of our locals, they
16
are treasurers of our locals, they are the community
17
liaison people in our locals.
18
communities.
19
their representative for that area are males.
20
They are the Presidents of
The women are running the
However, their superiors are all males or
I didn't come here to bash men.
That's
21
not our issue.
What we were trying to say and what we
22
have been trying to say for many years is that we need
23
a place there with them.
Not necessarily to move them
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over and say, "You have less authority than you have now
2
because we have come to share it with you"; no, basically
3
we have come to listen.
4
us have even felt:
5
to represent us when what they do beyond our borders of
6
our communities is not what we said that we would like
7
done in our communities?
At the community level many of
Why are we asking this group of people
8
For example, this particular discussion
9
we are having here was discussed in La Ronge, in a northern
10
community on the east side of our province.
11
discussions were going on of what to do about
12
self-government, how do we determine that, and what do
13
we do with our self-governing structures that are already
14
in place and that are already being run by community people
15
and now the government is going to take those funds and
16
give them to our parent organizations and how do we go
17
about making sure that the community representatives that
18
were initially there stay there because there will be
19
re-appointments of different kinds once a particular
20
program is being given from a federally or provincially-run
21
administration to us at the community level under our Métis
22
nations, many of us felt that there needed to be some
23
further consultation on that.
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As we spoke, one of our women -- and her
2
name is Elaine Ducharme -- was brutally murdered in La
3
Ronge, brutally murdered.
4
an investigation, there hasn't even been one sentence come
5
out of the Métis nation of Saskatchewan about this woman.
6
She is a Métis woman.
To this day, there has not been
That's just an example of how
7
inactive our leaderships are about the things that are
8
going on in our communities.
9
We have our children that are committing
10
suicide and doing very many serious things to themselves.
11
When we go to speak at forums like this, we talk about
12
land and we talk about forestry and how we can get our
13
contracts in and that they should listen to us, seeing
14
as we are the residents of the forest they are ripping
15
off.
16
of any kind of political forum that we attend.
17
becomes an issue is the kind of troublemakers we are.
That's not what gets used as an issue at the beginning
18
What
We found out too long ago that there is
19
just too much, I suppose, cooperation going on between
20
these big multi-corporations, plus the band councils, plus
21
our Métis, all involved somehow in something called
22
co-management.
23
address the issues that we have talked about, which is
The co-management says that they then not
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our forest, which is our water, which is our rocks, which
2
is uranium, in our communities.
3
talked about because we are involved in co-management.
4
Those things don't get
So, for two years we sit -- and none of
5
us sit there.
It's co-management only appointed by the
6
leadership.
7
it is us -- that is, women -- that are laying across the
8
highways and saying, "Stop this development until you
9
rethink what's going on in our communities", and to our
That's who co-management becomes, although
10
trappers.
They have taken pregnant women off our streets
11
and put them in the bus and put them in jail.
12
happen without us noticing it.
13
That doesn't
So, this Commission -- it says here, "How
14
can it be helpful?"
15
was not very helpful.
16
I agree, but I figure we have seen you in every corner
17
of our province probably, so I don't think we are much
18
of a threat.
19
Well, the way you treated us yesterday
We came here, we were uninvited,
As well, this Commission, in our view,
20
has sat and we have given you what we thought was our
21
evidence of how we felt we were being mistreated, not only
22
at the hands of our leaders but also at the hands of those
23
corporations and also now Indian-run businesses where they
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are ripping our Métis women out of those jobs that they
2
have had in our northern communities and giving those
3
contracts to Treaty people and those Treaty people then,
4
in turn, hire other Treaty people.
5
Métis women on the west side of our province are unemployed.
The majority of our
6
7
Those are the issues that are important
8
to us.
Employment is important to us and being able to
9
see some benefits of the resource that we see walking
10
through our trees or driving through our communities with
11
loads of trucks full of our lumber, and we can't get a
12
voice at the community -- I mean at the provincial level
13
where these issues are being addressed.
14
In one instance, in the Canoe Lake
15
blockage we had huge scores of RCMP come there with
16
unbelievable arms because our women had laid themselves
17
across the highway and said, "You have to stop their
18
cutting."
19
"Co-management is the way to go."
20
is a cop out and it's high time for people to sit and
21
contemplate on how much more forest they can rip off in
22
the two years they are in co-management.
23
Our leadership did nothing, except say,
I believe co-management
Many times we have made some
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presentations at the community level.
2
I think I have seen all of you and we asked if we could
3
make some kind of -- I think we presented you with a plan
4
at that time of how we thought we could try to be a model
5
community, for you to watch us to see if we could do that,
6
if we as Treaty people or Métis people or non-Aboriginal
7
people come to a community and function and determine for
8
ourselves under which jurisdiction we would be able to
9
work together.
10
is community.
At Île a la Crosse
We continue to do that and that, to us,
That is self-government for us.
11
We talked to Mr. Ratz (ph), who seems
12
to represent the Treaty people in our community, and say,
13
"Just what is it in the federal jurisdiction that you have
14
that you and I could work together as a Métis woman", the
15
President at that time was a Métis woman of that community,
16
"and how can we work together?
17
teachers and the RCMP and the doctors and whoever else
18
is non-Aboriginal in our community?"
19
How can we work with the
We can make some impact far more than
20
two kilometres around our communities because under
21
municipalities that's all we seem to be able to do.
22
have a structure there that's not very adequately
23
culturally sensitive for us.
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We can run for positions there at the
2
community level.
However, their jurisdiction is only a
3
two-mile radius and we are not to make issues on land.
4
Everywhere we go the agenda has been cut to the issues
5
that we think are important and that, we also believe,
6
a lot of you should look at in relation to us, especially
7
violence against women, and also our children.
8
What steps should be taken to ensure the
9
active participation of youth, elders and women in Métis
10
self-government structures?
Well, I guess we could argue
11
affirmative action.
12
that, many of our boardrooms say, "Well, if you want to
13
have a position here, put your name on a ballot."
14
have even said that to our elders, "You have no place here
15
until you put your name on a ballot, you have no power."
16
That, to me, is a deplorable way to try to build anything.
17
So, I guess to the degree where we have
18
not been able to get into those circles where apparently
19
your group of people, as well as other groups of people,
20
federal or provincial, recognize that as a place where
21
things are happening, where I think they need to look is
22
beyond that, beyond the structure of the politics, because
23
I think the politicians are trying to catch up with the
However, every time we have asked
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community at this point, many times, and you have to go
2
to the communities.
3
will be able to speak.
4
Those are the people that I think
One of the things you have to consider
5
is this appointment structure.
Who have you sent out one
6
of your field workers to say who can participate at this?
7
I know that in our communities many of them have to go
8
through another person before they can speak to you and
9
get on the agenda and that particular person is sometimes
10
not very sensitive to our issues because they are usually
11
appointed by the male-dominated political group in that
12
community, whether it be the Treaties or Métis.
13
So, consequently, any time that any of
14
us have to come here to say to you, "This is the message
15
we would like you to send for us on our behalf", we sometimes
16
think they have been told bad things about us.
17
even sure why we get this very negative feeling.
I'm not
18
Maybe you have not heard a woman before
19
in your circles, I don't know, but it's not a very healthy
20
way to ask for our participation, although many times we
21
have said we are not going to wait for an invitation, we
22
will get someone to ask for one for us.
23
a little bolder now that maybe your term is over.
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We are getting
I'm
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Royal Commission on
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not sure how much longer you will be before you tell us
2
what the nation is saying.
3
The other concern we have is just exactly
4
what is it that you will be writing on our behalf as Métis
5
women, because in every one of our provinces, as I said
6
yesterday, we are in trouble.
7
office by another group of women.
8
another group of women would not say what we are saying
9
maybe more carefully; however, they would be saying it.
10
I can't believe them not saying it although they are
11
We have been removed from
I'm not saying that
appointed.
12
The issues don't go away purely because
13
you have changed women.
14
dramatic, but they will still be there.
15
anyone could sit there and not recognize that our women,
16
such as Elaine Ducharme, are murdered and no one says
17
anything.
18
It may get a little bit less
I can't believe
So, I think that the Commission itself
19
would be far more advantageous by reaching out to the
20
community people, even in the impact area you are going
21
to visit, if that could be possible.
22
have done that in some cases.
23
under the structure.
I realize that you
However, again it's all
I know that you have to respect that
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and many times that's the excuse I get.
2
If I ask for information in regards to
3
the Royal Commission or any other kind of different
4
activities that are going on in our areas, I am told that
5
I have to ask another individual, that they are the one
6
in charge of it and that they would be the ones that would
7
determine what's going to go on as a community
8
consultation.
9
involved, especially the women.
10
I don't see community people being
I see community people,
but mostly they are males.
11
If I could
12
just interject.
I know that I have had a couple of hands
13
go up around the table and I would like to have an
14
opportunity for some of the delegates to speak as well.
15
16
getting done the questions, anyway.
17
some of them.
I was just
I was trying to answer
That's fine, go ahead.
18
Frank?
19
FRANK PALMATER, President, New
20
Brunswick Aboriginal Peoples Council:
21
interrupt a woman when the conversation that we are on
22
is particular to Native women, Métis women.
23
have been recognized and I first must make my apologies
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I really hate to
However, I
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to the Commissioners for being here late this morning.
2
I found out that my Vice-President's
3
mother passed away and when he found that out, he called
4
to make arrangements to go to the funeral and found out
5
that his wife's father passed away, within 15 minutes of
6
each other.
7
arrangements.
8
Commissioners.
9
So, I had to stay up in my room and make some
So, I apologize for being late to the
In attempting to answer the questions
10
back home in the community, I asked if it would be
11
appropriate for me to be here answering concerns about
12
Métis women in some of these questions.
13
of who we are in the province of New Brunswick goes similar
14
to this.
15
A history lesson
We have 22 locals in the province.
16
Seventy-nine per cent of our locals have an executive that
17
is structured President, Vice-President, Secretary; 79
18
per cent are women.
19
65 per cent are women.
20
Of our Board of Directors, 12 zones,
We received some finances from Privy
21
Council Office to engage in self-government discussions.
22
The Self-Government Steering Committee in the province
23
of New Brunswick was hand-picked.
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There are five women and five men; equal representation
2
on that committee.
3
In New Brunswick we have refused, and
4
we will continue refusing, to allow governments or anyone
5
else to split us by saying that our women are
6
status/non-status Métis and they participate at those
7
levels when it has a reflection on them.
8
"Frank, you are our elected leader and you will go to Ottawa
9
and, as best as you possibly can, answer these questions,
10
The women said,
not as a women but as an elected leader."
11
Your first question says:
What are the
12
major issues?
13
back home feel -- and I tend to agree with them -- that
14
there are three things lacking, Native leaders and
15
non-Native leaders, in the way they deal with women, and
16
that is respect, dignity and honesty.
17
me to make sure that the Commissioners were very well aware
18
that if all women, all youth, all elders, all men, all
19
Aboriginal people are treated with respect, dignity and
20
honesty, there would be no need for special consultations.
21
22
23
It's not so much an issue as what the women
The women wanted
But that isn't happening.
I have witnessed over the last day or
so women who are here, who say they are left out.
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Brunswick I like to think that that's not happening.
2
is no doubt that women would come in from New Brunswick
3
and say, "Oh, he's full of poop, he is not speaking the
4
truth.
5
to exclude anyone.
6
for everyone to participate, if they choose to participate.
We are left out."
7
There
Our process doesn't allow us
It isn't a perfect process, but allows
One of the recommendations from New
8
Brunswick was that whatever the Commission recommends to
9
the government, make sure that it is inclusive and not
10
exclusive.
Allow for structures for participation.
11
it equal, does it have to be equal; no.
Is
12
I don't know why more women are not at
13
the table to speak on Métis issues with respect to women.
14
I didn't set it up, I'm not responsible for it.
I was
15
asked to be here.
I consulted with the community groups
16
before I came and they said, "You are our elected leader
17
and you will go and do what you were elected to do, and
18
that is to represent the people in the province of New
19
Brunswick."
20
Something that a lot of people forget
21
-- and my grandmother used to joke about it all the time
22
-- is that women were the centre of Aboriginal communities
23
prior to European contact.
We were a matriarchal society,
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at least we were in the east.
2
in the west and a couple of times I have been told at other
3
meetings, "Don't you tell us how it was out here.
4
don't know, you weren't here.
5
first."
6
I'm not so sure how it went
You
Know your own history
So, I am basically sticking to the east.
In the east we were a matriarchal
7
society.
When a man was accepted as a provider for a women,
8
he went to her family and assumed her matriarchal tree.
9
She didn't go to his, as we do in the European culture,
10
and assume his name; it was the reverse.
My grandmother
11
always told me that women are the givers of life.
12
have a very small part to play, some men smaller than
13
others.
Men
That's the words of my grandmother.
14
If we forget where we came from, if we
15
forget the role that women play in our lives, we do them
16
an injustice and a disservice.
17
upset and do they have a right to be?
18
issues that deal with women are that we don't treat them
19
with respect or dignity and honesty and in New Brunswick
20
they have been asking that when we do speak for them or
21
on their behalf or with them, that we treat them with
22
honesty.
23
Don't lie.
Are they mad and are they
Yes.
Why?
There is no need.
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They are
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Aboriginal people.
2
some of us.
3
slough it off.
They just look a little better than
Don't lie.
If they have a problem, don't
4
How can the Commission be most helpful?
5
Don't allow self-government processes, don't allow the
6
government, through your recommendations to the
7
government, to split us even further, "Well, geez, we will
8
only deal with that because it's a Métis woman's issue
9
or we will only deal with that because it's a non-status
10
Micmac woman's issue."
Women are the nurturers of all
11
life.
12
"Mother Earth" because it was set up to provide life, to
13
sustain itself.
The earth is referred to in Aboriginal culture as
Women were set up for that purpose.
14
Would it be wrong for us to ignore them,
15
to treat them any less than we want to be treated as men?
16
I won't.
I have a wife who refuses to allow me to do
17
that.
18
recommendations to the government, you could include those
19
three words, that women must be treated with dignity,
20
respect and, above all, honesty.
21
I don't have all the answers, but if, in your
I feel strange sometimes as a man
22
speaking on women's issues, but I am elected.
23
political leader, I am elected and 79 to 80 per cent of
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the assembly that elected me were women.
So, I am told
2
to come here to meetings like this and speak on their
3
behalf.
I wish I had some of my board here with me.
4
An example:
The Vice-President of our
5
Economic Development Corporation is a woman.
6
telephone conference call last night at 6:00 o'clock, 7:00
7
o'clock in New Brunswick, 7:30 in Newfoundland.
8
know what time in Labrador.
9
10
BERNIE HEARD:
We had a
I don't
The same in New
Brunswick.
11
FRANK PALMATER:
As we do, we get caught
12
up in technicalities and I was just trying to inform the
13
Board about what we were doing in our latest acquisition.
14
We are trying to buy a park from the province of New
15
Brunswick and we want to make it into a tourism mecca
16
because just up the road there is a village, post-European
17
contact.
18
white people used to be like before they got electricity,
19
guns, cars, stuff like that.
20
the road is an add-on.
21
pre-European Aboriginal village", and this land became
22
available.
23
It's called King's Landing and it's what the
We thought, "Gee, just down
Wouldn't it be nice to see a
So, we made an offer and I'm real glad
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that the President of the Corporation is a woman and I'm
2
real glad she was available to sit on the Board last night
3
because she said, "Frank, have our lawyers checked out
4
the offer?"
5
up."
6
offer that allows us, if our lawyer is not satisfied, to
7
pull out?"
8
before we send the offer back", which is good.
9
should know what is and what is not a good deal for us.
10
I said, "Oh, yes, they helped us write it
She said, "Did we include an escape clause in our
I said "no".
I didn't think of that.
She said, "Well, put one in
I thought all the t's were crossed
11
and the i's were dotted and they weren't.
12
glad that she was there.
13
Our lawyer
So, I was very
In New Brunswick I cannot be responsible
14
for what happens in the west.
15
for what happens in P.E.I. or Nova Scotia or Labrador.
16
But as an Aboriginal person, as a leader, I can be
17
responsible for, and I am responsible for, what happens
18
in the province of New Brunswick and we refuse to neglect
19
our women, our youth and our elders.
20
today the way we can best preserve our culture, by using
21
those three individuals, women, youth and elders.
22
23
I cannot be responsible
They were and are
Unfortunately, a lot of Aboriginal
leaders -- and I have been accused of it in the past --
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use, "Well, we don't have any money to involve them."
2
Well, find money.
3
development opportunities, you find money for
4
self-government discussions, why can't you find money to
5
involve people, women, youth and elders.
6
You find money for economical
I feel bad that we don't have a special
7
forum here for elders, to ask questions about elders,
8
because with our elders is the wisdom and the knowledge
9
of what happened in the past.
10
What a resource that we are ignoring in this forum.
11
12
If I could
interject, please?
13
14
Man, oh man, what a resource!
FRANK PALMATER:
Yes.
I'm just about
done, anyway.
15
Good, because
16
we have three more speakers and they want to break for
17
lunch.
18
FRANK PALMATER:
My recommendation to
19
the Commission on this is whatever recommendations you
20
make to the government, make sure that all Aboriginal
21
people are inclusive and that the systems you recommend
22
be set up for Aboriginal people will include all Aboriginal
23
people.
Don't allow them to split us.
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to allow that in the province of New Brunswick, I hope
2
you refuse to allow the government to direct you that way.
3
Thank you.
4
5
Frank.
6
Mary?
7
8
Thank you,
K.C.
Thank you,
I have to be fast, I know.
9
I would like to, first of all, apologize
10
to Bernice and the women if you felt, for any reason, that
11
any action taken here was meant to exclude you because
12
I really think that there was no ill-intention meant.
13
I apologize if there is any hurt feelings as a result of
14
this process.
15
I would also like to thank you for coming
16
back despite the frustration that you felt because I think
17
in the line of work that you do and the line of work that
18
we do and the line of work that we did before we came to
19
the Commission it's like that.
20
frustrating to try to make changes and sometimes you become
21
very, very discouraged and change takes a long time.
22
23
It's very, very
I do know that in our hearings some of
the issues that we dealt with were more sensitive than
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others.
In fact there were issues that were so sensitive
2
that particularly Aboriginal women would not speak about
3
those issues publicly.
4
sessions and we accommodated those requests.
5
gone through that experience, I often wonder to myself
6
the violence that women feel, the oppression or the
7
powerlessness.
8
somewhere.
9
They asked us for many in camera
After having
Certainly, goodness, that must stop
We heard earlier this morning that it's
10
not for the Royal Commission, for example, to be
11
prescriptive.
12
to tell male leaders that they should not be doing what
13
they are doing to the people in their communities and I
14
think that's right.
15
our control, but if anyone has any ideas as to what a
16
Commission like us can do to be helpful in this area without
17
being prescriptive, I would really appreciate that.
It's not for us to make recommendations
I think that, really, that's beyond
18
Thank you.
19
20
Mary.
21
Kirby?
22
KIRBY LETHBRIDGE:
23
Thank you,
I would like to
quickly just touch on the questions and I have a short
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comment I would like to make.
2
and to the other women as well.
3
time.
4
Again I apologize to Bernice
I won't take too much
I, as well, feel uncomfortable speaking
5
on behalf of women.
6
I do have a daughter and I have a mother.
7
healing is the most important thing to women, that men
8
heal of certain flaws that were in our make-up because
9
of an imposition of fundamentally flawed concepts/views
10
toward women.
11
I am not an elected person.
However,
I think that
Healing.
I would like to add that five of our
12
Board, which represents the Métis Association, are women
13
from our coastal communities.
14
from just about every of the major communities on the south
15
coast.
16
Actually, we have women
Looking into self-government
17
institutions, how can we guarantee that women are going
18
to be properly represented, elders, youth.
19
constitutional requirement could be developed which would
20
guarantee an agreed level of participation.
21
build anything successfully, you have to have a level
22
foundation.
23
will have a crooked house and you won't be able to build
Possibly some
I think to
If you build on a crooked foundation, you
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very high before it falls over.
2
When I was a child, up through my youth
3
and into a marriage, which fell apart because I really
4
didn't know very much, I came to recognize a process there,
5
which I think I was taught unbeknownst to me.
6
it was taught unconsciously.
I think
I don't know how to say that.
7
8
9
I think people weren't aware of what was
being taught, what was being passed on.
I had a very flawed
10
view of the role of women and I have come to recognize
11
that it is a learned behaviour.
12
being very important.
13
This is where I see healing
I have started to heal in many ways and
14
it's a wonderful thing.
I was a very self-serving,
15
self-gratifying person, and I apologize to women today.
16
Much of the misery and the hurt that's been in my life
17
was brought on by sort of a domino effect through the
18
generations.
19
that I have seen women treated, the things that I have
20
heard said and the things that I have said.
21
It's very sad sometimes to think of the way
It's really hard for anyone to change
22
and to do that we need support.
I hate the words
23
"institution" and "mechanism", but I think it's required
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that we have access based on the principle of equity of
2
access -- which is agreed to, the consensus report in the
3
Charlottetown Accord -- to certain programs.
4
I think the most important one is the
5
development of cultural institutions, cultural centres
6
across this country, where women can come and participate,
7
where men can come and participate, where children can
8
participate, where the teachers in the school can go and
9
learn, where people in the social welfare system can come
10
11
and learn, where I can go and learn about concept.
I know that there are mechanisms in the
12
federal system that provide certain services to First
13
Nations; not to all First Nations, either.
14
to me that it's just a token way of addressing a problem
15
to say, "We spend X number of dollars on certain things."
16
So, I think that a recommendation that
17
the Commission could make to the government is that this
18
principle of equity of access be applied to our concept
19
of community development.
20
I believe is healing, the healing of individuals and
21
families, repatriation to identity.
So, it seems
As I said, the number one thing
22
The difference for me expressing myself
23
as an Aboriginal person is this, that I either have a time
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line and relationship to the land this long or I have one
2
at least this long.
3
not from European men.
4
back to some of the things Frank talked about, and Bernice.
5
It's being brave enough to address myself, to look at
6
That relationship came from women,
So, for me to heal means getting
myself.
7
I know that institutions are not really
8
going to really be the mechanisms -- I hate that -- that
9
you cannot legislate change, you cannot make institutions
10
that will guarantee change, but certainly there are people
11
and women, being the most important of those people, and
12
our children.
13
access to these institutions whereby we can start the
14
change, a change based on healing.
15
They are the people who should be guaranteed
Thank you
17
I have one last speaker.
Réjan?
18
RÉJAN PILOTE:
16
very much.
Je ne ferai pas une
19
grosse intervention.
Je veux dire que je porte un très
20
grand respect à mes grands-mères, à ma mère, aux femmes
21
et aux filles qui forment le peuple métis.
22
quand on est ici et on parle de gouvernement métis, on
23
parle aussi de constitution, et je crois que la
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constitution du peuple métis, nous l'avons ici devant nous,
2
notre constitution.
3
du drapeau, on voit le signe de l'infini, où les femmes
4
sont à l'origine de tout; on voit que c'est deux entités
5
qui sont réunies, l'homme et la femme, et on voit que
6
l'homme et la femme sont égaux.
7
de dire qui est la femme et qui est l'homme.
8
9
On parle du drapeau, et quand on parle
On n'est même pas capable
Alors, comme geste symbolique, au nom
des Métis, je voudrais tout simplement remettre cette
10
constitution aux femmes métisses.
La constitution est
11
contenue dans le drapeau, mais étant donné qu'il faut
12
l'expliquer, il y a quelques mots qui sont écrits avec.
13
14
On ne peut, comme Métis, comme
15
gouvernement métis, adopter n'importe quelle constitution
16
pour un gouvernement sans qu'elle soit acceptée par les
17
femmes.
18
l'origine, mais j'espère que ce ne sera pas qu'un geste
19
symbolique.
20
que tel; j'espère que la Commission en tirera elle-même
21
ses conclusions.
22
23
Donc c'est peut-être un geste symbolique à
Je ne ferai pas de recommandation en tant
Alors, par respect pour les femmes
métisses, je crois qu'on ne peut pas accepter le fondement
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de nos gouvernements sans que les femmes participent à
2
tout le processus et apportent les corrections qui peuvent
3
y être faites.
4
drapeau qui est la constitution et qui est parfait, mais
5
qu'il faut l'expliquer en quelques mots qui, eux, ne sont
6
pas parfaits, nous attendrons donc que les femmes nous
7
disent qu'est-ce qu'elles en pensent avant de l'adopter.
8
9
Thank you
very much.
10
11
Donc, étant donné qu'on peut avoir un
I believe Bernice wanted to make a couple
of comments.
12
I just want to
13
thank you all for letting us speak this morning.
I know
14
I may say some cruel things.
15
cruel things and I apologize if I offended anyone here.
16
More importantly, maybe just one last
Sometimes we have to say
17
point.
I know that all of you will probably leave here
18
and say, "Well, if you want a voice, go get elected."
19
A lot of us are elected.
20
we get elected as well, regardless of whether we get
21
elected.
We get removed from office after
22
I am elected and I have been trying to
23
fight into those boardrooms and say this or that and say
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my piece in terms of land and family and housing and many
2
issues that are important to women and I'm not allowed
3
in those corridors although I am elected to the same places
4
they are, the 14 men I sit with.
5
great solution, unless you get elected to be President
6
possibly, and even then I'm not sure if you will be
7
impeached or whatever.
So, that may be not a
8
I also want to thank the elderly woman
9
who sat here and spoke because I think there needs to be
10
more women elders that you bring to these tables.
At all
11
the circles we have we bring our women there that are
12
healers as well, women healers.
13
Also in this whole healing atmosphere
14
that everybody seems to be in, we are caught up in that
15
as well.
16
and now we are into these circles and we say we all need
17
to heal.
The women are healing, they have been healing,
18
I don't know, but asking someone over
19
for supper is usually a good step in healing.
That kind
20
of stuff needs to happen, just practical things, practical
21
common courtesy.
22
a good job of training some of you to do that and maybe
23
our duties are not great, either.
Maybe some of us women haven't been doing
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I want to thank you and I think Marge
2
wants to thank you, too, for allowing us to speak.
3
are going to be some women later this afternoon coming
4
to listen to you and maybe even try to participate.
5
you two, especially, for allowing us to sit in your seats
6
yesterday.
7
There
Thank
Hopefully this process that we are
8
involved in inevitably will come up with some kind of
9
solutions.
I'm a little bit leery to say that those
10
solutions are without some problems in terms of the
11
ingredients that went into it, because I think those are
12
a little bit messy at this point.
13
when the ingredients are mostly appointed or paid for in
14
terms of the recommendations.
So, I judge results
15
So, with that as a rider to your results
16
from the activities you went through across Canada, I thank
17
you once again on behalf of the Métis women in my province
18
and the ones that are next to us, because they are talking
19
about you over there as well, in the process of not allowing
20
us into this in terms of whatever specific group needs
21
to be recognized.
22
23
We are not the recognized group,
obviously, and we have some problems with our men that
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don't recognize us because we are their mothers usually.
2
It's hard for us to know that when we put them in these
3
positions and then they say, "You are not the women we
4
wanted."
5
6
In any case, thank you, all of you, and
hopefully we will run into you again.
7
8
Claude, you had a couple of comments?
9
MARGE FREIDEL:
10
Thank you.
I, too, want to thank
everyone here.
11
I think that the one recommendation that
12
I can give to the Commission on behalf of Métis women is
13
I really felt the whole time of your tenure here -- many
14
of the Métis women that I spoke to had a really, really
15
difficult time because of the structures that were set
16
up to come and address.
17
women and their organizations are so under-funded and then
18
when we did want to try and access any funding, we couldn't
19
get there.
First of all, I think that Métis
20
Maybe we weren't as well organized as
21
some of the other women's organizations and, therefore,
22
maybe it's part of circumstances that did all this.
23
even in the self-government negotiations -- and I think
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that I would like to see the Commission recommend one of
2
these things -- some of the consultations that are going
3
on and that have gone on that led up to Charlottetown and
4
that are now going on for the money that is provided for
5
these consultations, I think the whole process, not only
6
from women's point of view, I think from a grassroots and
7
a community point of view, is that I don't really feel
8
that the voice of the people in the community and the
9
grassroots is being heard or has been heard at
10
Charlottetown.
11
I go back to the Charlottetown Accord
12
and the referendum.
13
really pushed for us to say "yes".
14
look at the statistics of the results of that referendum,
15
you will find that the Native communities were the ones
16
that rejected it the greatest, and that I think is because
17
there was such a lack of communication or a lack of trust
18
back into that community.
19
telling us to say "yes", we were all fearful and we said
20
"no".
21
In the communities I know our leaders
Yet, if you go and
Even though the leaders were
The government puts this time line on
22
these negotiations.
23
on.
Right now there is one that's going
Not many of us in our community or those of us who
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have been pushed out of the organizations really know much
2
of what's going on right now, yet we are supposed to be
3
going through this consultation.
4
We are never ever going to buy into this
5
until we are part of it, until we are balanced, until
6
someone comes to these tables and says, "Women elected
7
me and I can come here and I can speak on behalf of the
8
women.
9
speak on behalf of behalf of women.
10
They told me that."
Men will never be able to
Women must be there to speak on behalf
11
of themselves and I think that we have to tell the
12
government to quit putting these time lines on, that all
13
these things are going to happen.
14
eventually and they will only be good if we take time.
They will evolve
15
We have taken a long time to come to this
16
point in history and we can't correct it in four months,
17
six months, two years.
18
from this place back to where we are balanced and healed.
It will take a long time to come
19
20
I thank you again.
21
CLAUDE AUBIN:
Ce qui relève de la
22
question 3, je peux seulement parler pour le Québec mais
23
j'aimerais peut-être stimuler tous les Métis du Canada
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à y penser sérieusement.
2
On est tellement habitué à des
3
structures corporatives présentement pour nous gérer qui
4
sont des structure pyramidales... peut-être que c'est le
5
temps qu'on enlève la pyramide et qu'on reprenne possession
6
de soi-même dans le contexte du cercle, qu'on essaie de
7
ne plus répéter les erreurs du passé et qu'on regarde vers
8
l'avenir et peut-être se restructurer politiquement,
9
surtout au niveau communautaire, dans un cercle; et que
10
dans ce cercle tous ceux qui doivent être représentés
11
soient là.
12
Des fois je me demande si on a vraiment
13
besoin d'un porte-parole; pourquoi on n'aurait pas besoin
14
de plusieurs porte-parole communautaires?
15
a besoin d'un leader?
16
de plusieurs leaders?
17
Pourquoi on
Pourquoi on n'aurait pas besoin
Ce que je veux dire par ça, c'est que
18
si on établit -- et on y pense sérieusement -- dans notre
19
développement de structure gouvernementale, basé sur ce
20
que nous sommes dans le cercle... à ce moment-là, dans
21
l'équité communautaire, dans l'égalité communautaire,
22
dans la parole à la communauté, les femmes, les hommes,
23
les jeunes et les anciens font partie du processus
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décisionnel.
Et lorsque le sujet sera en fonction de
2
certaines choses, ce sera ce porte-parole là ou cette
3
porte-parole là.
4
Peut-être qu'avec le temps nous allons
5
sortir de cette pyramide, où on essaie toujours de faire
6
rentrer un cercle dans une pyramide ou une pyramide dans
7
un cercle, et peut-être qu'on se débarrassera une fois
8
pour toutes de la pyramide, qu'on retournera au cercle
9
et qu'on reprendra ce qu'on appelle le mot "consensus".
10
Un consensus parfois prend beaucoup plus de temps et de
11
discussion, parce qu'il n'y a pas de décisions qui sont
12
prises par une personne.
13
du cercle, à ce moment-là, si le cercle a décidé
14
d'identifier un porte-parole pour parler à ce moment-là,
15
ça devrait être un consensus.
Mais quand la décision vient
16
Je veux juste vous donner ça en vous...
17
peut-être que c'est le genre de gouvernement de l'avenir.
18
On n'est pas obligé de continuer à faire le genre de
19
gouvernement pyramidal qu'on est habitué d'avoir et qui
20
nous a été aussi imposé.
21
Merci.
22
23
Thank you
very much for your participation in this part of the circle.
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2
We will break for lunch.
3
and we will resume at 1:30.
4
--- Luncheon recess at 12:25 p.m.
5
--- Upon resuming at 1:40 p.m.
6
It is 12:25
If we could
7
begin this afternoon, I will do a very brief overview for
8
this afternoon's session so I can free up more time for
9
discussion from the participants.
10
As for previous sessions, the questions
11
for Group 5 are under Tab 8, the fundamental questions.
12
This afternoon's session will focus on the Métis
13
aspirations and some of the impediments that you may
14
identify.
15
what you feel are the solutions to these many impediments.
16
I would ask that we keep our discussion
17
short and to the point, keeping in mind the fundamental
18
guiding questions, and we focus on solutions so that our
19
Commissioners will have your solutions to work with in
20
developing their recommendations.
21
open the floor to the participants.
What we would like for you to also do is provide
22
Bernie?
23
BERNIE HEARD:
So, with that, I will
I will keep it to the
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point and very brief.
2
I would have to say the Labrador Métis -- the two major
3
impediments that I see are quite simple: lack of acceptance
4
by the province or by the Premier, if you wish, and lack
5
of funding.
6
a volunteer organization and always have been.
7
province, as you know, doesn't accept the simple fact that
8
we do actually exist.
9
under those circumstances.
10
At the risk of sounding repetitious,
We have absolutely no funding.
We are purely
The
It's pretty difficult to do anything
Are the impediments the same as the
11
Indians or the Inuit?
12
I can change that "or" to an "and"
13
Indians and Inuit in Labrador, as well as Métis.
14
give you three very quick examples of the differences.
15
Certainly not.
Health services.
In fact in Labrador
because we have both
I will
The Innu Nation and
16
the Labrador Inuit Association have federal funding to
17
pay for referrals for outside medical services that are
18
not available in the local community.
19
becomes quite costly.
20
throughout 13 isolated communities not connected by road.
21
The only way out is by air if you are in a hurry and it's
In Labrador, this
Our membership is scattered
22
awfully expensive.
We pay our own way.
23
Inuit have federal funding programs for that purpose.
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A second and very important example is
2
post-secondary education.
3
wants to go beyond high school, they do have
4
educational-funded programs through the federal
5
government to provide that service.
6
own way.
7
Any Innu or Inuit student that
The Métis pay their
The third one is legal services.
In
8
Labrador, based in Happy Valley-Goose Bay, there is an
9
organization called Labrador Legal Services, which is
10
funded by government, and it provides legal services to
11
Innu and Inuit people who are before the law for any reason.
12
13
14
It does not cover the Métis people.
Solutions?
Three examples.
I don't have any solutions.
The solutions, I guess, become rather obvious.
First
15
and foremost, we have to be accepted by the province, who
16
gets involved in managing the funding for all Native people
17
in Labrador, as I understand it, and, secondly, we
18
desperately need core funding for our own organization,
19
simply to get organized, which we have never been able
20
to do to the extent we would like to do.
21
are the two primary solutions, as I see it.
22
23
I think these
Definition of the Métis, in itself, is
not necessarily a solution.
I think acceptance is a
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solution, but definitions -- we have lots of definitions
2
already and it doesn't seem to solve anything.
3
Self-government?
Certainly some form
4
of self-government would help.
We haven't put an awful
5
lot of effort into coming up with what we would consider
6
to be the proper form self-government for our people.
7
We have looked at very basic things like some kind of
8
management of natural resources and some kind of control
9
over health and education services; that sort of thing.
10
We really don't have any specifics on that but we do think
11
that's an area that should be further explored by our
12
people, and will be.
13
There is not much else I can say.
14
15
Thank you
very much, Bernie.
16
Garth?
17
GARTH WALLBRIDGE:
18
I would put a question to Bernie, if I
Thank you, K.C.
19
might.
I understand you to say that definition is not
20
a part of the solution, but acceptance is and I wonder,
21
do you think that the lack of acceptance by the province
22
might be based on the fact of a lack of a definition in
23
terms of, I don't know, perhaps how big the constituent
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is?
Is that a concern of the province perhaps?
2
BERNIE HEARD:
I'm not sure.
I don't
3
know what the province's problem is, quite frankly.
4
I know is they say there are no Métis in Labrador or the
5
province doesn't say that, the Premier says that.
6
are people within the provincial government who would
7
disagree with them, but they won't disagree with them
8
publicly.
9
All
There
I know that for a fact.
The reason I say I don't think definition
10
is a problem, I think we have lots of definitions.
11
know, there are many definitions and most people would
12
agree that a Métis is a person of mixed Aboriginal and
13
some other blood lines.
14
with that and I don't believe even Premier Wells would
15
argue with the fact that that does exist in Labrador.
16
What he is saying is there aren't any Métis in Labrador.
17
I don't think he is arguing with the definition of "Métis",
18
I don't think anybody would argue
I think it's just -- I don't know what it is.
19
GARTH WALLBRIDGE:
20
21
Mary?
22
23
You
Thank you.
Thank you.
I would
just like to try to help Bernie out here a little bit.
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We did receive some correspondence from Ray Hawko, who
2
is Assistant Secretary to Cabinet in the province of
3
Newfoundland-Labrador, and in that letter he identified
4
the province's problem with the Métis situation in
5
Labrador.
6
Basically, what they say is that the
7
government of Newfoundland and Labrador recognizes that
8
there are people of Aboriginal descent in the province
9
who identify themselves as Métis.
The province does not
10
agree that they are Métis within the meaning of section
11
35(1) of the Constitution Act.
12
13
14
Could I just
ask a little question before the next speaker?
You mentioned the position of the
15
province in relation to the Métis in Labrador.
16
the position of the federal government?
17
recognition there?
18
BERNIE HEARD:
What is
Do you have
We have recognition --
19
well, I guess you could call it recognition -- from a fair
20
number of departments within the federal government.
21
have a memorandum of understanding with the Department
22
of National Defence for discussion purposes, we have
23
entered into contribution agreements for certain specific
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things with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, with
2
the RCMP, with two or three other departments which escapes
3
my memory right at the moment.
4
number of the major departments in fact that do recognize
5
the fact that we are there and in fact they have entered
6
into dialogue with us.
But, yes, we have a fair
7
8
9
just a question of clarification.
Thank you.
Bernie,
You were saying, I
10
understand, that I guess you do have some project funding
11
from Sec State, from the Native Citizens Directorate, but
12
what's the problem in getting core funding from them?
13
14
BERNIE HEARD:
I honestly don't know.
We did receive that before I was involved with the
15
Association.
Our organization did receive a very small
16
-- I think it was in around 1988, 1987, 1986, somewhere
17
in that area -- a small grant from Sec State to do some
18
original initial organizing, one year.
19
have been attempting to get money every year and we have
20
been turned down every year.
Since then, we
I don't know why.
21
22
23
Thank you.
Thank you
very much for your additional clarification.
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Greg?
2
GREG SCHOFIELD:
In regard to Question
3
1, what I just wanted to add is it's pretty evident that
4
recognition is probably a really big factor in the things
5
that are preventing us as a nation to achieving our goals
6
and our aspirations.
7
I also just wanted to share that in the
8
province of British Columbia, as of November 16th, 1993,
9
that was declared Métis Day in British Columbia.
So, we
10
are getting recognition as people and different things
11
are happening.
12
that I am hearing with organizations and groups, funding
13
continues to be a real big problem.
Unfortunately, I guess like a lot of things
14
We annually function on a budget of like
15
$5,000 and a lot of our help comes from volunteer work,
16
which mostly makes up the organization is volunteer work,
17
as far as our services and things go.
18
share that with the rest of the delegates, that there is
19
recognition in British Columbia.
I just wanted to
20
Thank you.
21
22
23
very much, Greg.
Roy?
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2
ROY CARDINAL:
The first question is:
What is preventing Métis from achieving their
3
aspirations?
4
is not recognizing, is not seeing the word "Métis" in the
5
Constitution.
6
The answer to that is the federal government
Are there impediments within the
7
Aboriginal community?
8
solution also.
I guess it goes back to the 91(24)
9
What I would like to point out here is
10
until I can go hunting without harassment or until I get
11
my education and also the education of the Métis people
12
in the province that is equivalent to the educational
13
funding as the Treaties, what I would like to point out
14
there is we should get equivalent funding as the Treaties
15
because that's not happening right now and we should get
16
equivalent funding because we are suppose to be recognized
17
in 91(24).
18
Also, part of the solution, I may
19
suggest, would be if the Royal Commission can tell the
20
federal government to try to follow their contract in the
21
Constitution, which states that the Métis are included.
22
If they can back up their word that the Métis are included,
23
then we should
have the equivalent funding to education
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and hunting rights as the Métis.
So, what I would like
2
to recommend is for the Royal Commission to explicitly
3
state to the federal government that the Métis want to
4
exercise their rights.
5
Thank you.
6
7
MARTIN DUNN:
Martin?
Just so that I don't get
8
so tied up in taking these notes that I don't get this
9
particular bit in, I would like to address the issue of
10
impediment, first of all, on a broader basis than the
11
particular circumstance of Métis in any given region.
12
Depending on how you look at it, full
13
time 15 years, part time 30 years I have been involved
14
in this process.
15
are outlined in the discussion papers, so I won't detail
16
them -- a series of techniques that governments use to
17
manage conflict that comes at them.
I have come to recognize -- and they
18
It's a very sophisticated process and
19
it's a process that, if you learn to do it, you can get
20
very highly paid.
21
up.
22
government is more than willing to hire you to sic you
23
on all kinds of groups that generate conflict for
It's a minimum of $50,000 a year and
If you learn to use these techniques successfully,
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governments.
2
3
Conflict management is a state of mind.
It's a way of looking at things.
As long as federal and
4
provincial bureaucracies have the idea that it is their
5
job to manage conflict as opposed to accommodate
6
aspirations, we have a major impediment.
7
experience, that's exactly what has happened.
8
government in this country is in a conflict management
9
mode when it comes to Métis, in particular.
10
From my
Every
In doing the research for the paper,
11
there was actually some flat-out statements by some
12
government advisors, if not governments themselves, that
13
says, "Putting Métis in the Constitution was a mistake.
14
We blew it.
It should never have happened.
We have let
15
ourselves in for a huge can of worms here and we have to
16
put a lid on that can."
17
management is about.
18
That's basically what conflict
Basically, conflict management is:
19
Okay, we goofed, but let's -- somebody else used the phrase
20
here yesterday -- let's do some damage control.
21
see how small we can make the problem and then we will
22
deal with it on a much more limited basis than circumstances
23
might appear that we have to.
Let's
That has basically been
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the scenario in the constitutional process and not just
2
in relation to Métis, in relation to other Aboriginal
3
peoples, too.
4
The job of the Aboriginal leadership of
5
the last 10 years is to make section 5 mean as much as
6
we can possibly make it mean.
7
Aboriginal leadership.
8
it mean as little as they could possibly make it mean and
9
one of the techniques for doing that is denial.
That was the job of the
The job of governments was to make
10
deny.
11
Métis do not exist, don't bother me.
12
with that, that's the easiest way to conflict manage,
13
because then you never have to deal with it.
14
Métis don't exist.
You just
Wells has taken that tack:
If you can get away
Then there are a number of subsets of
15
dealing with it, one of which is definition.
16
in such a way that it becomes smaller and smaller and
17
smaller, so that Mr. Wells can say, "Of course, there are
18
Métis in the Constitution, but they all live in Red River.
19
20
Define it
None of them live here."
That's a way of using definition and
21
Clyde Wells does have a definition.
22
Métis National Council definition of "Métis".
23
to accept it because it serves his purpose of managing
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He wants
401
Royal Commission on
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what he perceives to be a potential conflict between
2
Newfoundland's desire to use Labrador's resources and the
3
Labradorian's desire to defend it on the basis of
4
Aboriginal right, on the basis of being Métis peoples or
5
of being Innu or Inuit, for that matter.
6
So, I think one of the areas, and it's
7
such a foggy area that I am at a little bit of a loss to
8
propose how you might do it specifically, but if the
9
Commission could find a way and find more evidence in the
10
material that has been brought before it that I am not
11
at all aware of of these kinds of techniques and how they
12
are used deliberately to avoid accommodation.
13
We can't assume good will on the part
14
of governments as much as we would like to.
As we have
15
heard leaders say over and over and over again, up until
16
Charlottetown at least, the political will is just not
17
there to make as much of a positive opportunity that section
18
35 provides us.
19
positive opportunity.
They can't seem to see that that's a
20
They see it as a danger to the status
21
quo that has to be delimited, that has to be defined, that
22
has to be restricted in any way possible, so that at least
23
it keeps the cost down.
That's usually the first line
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of defence, "We have to keep the cost down.
This is too
2
expensive a process to deal with in any kind of
3
accommodative way."
4
It's my personal feeling -- I just might
5
be getting old and cynical -- that we are trapped in that
6
mode at this stage of the game and I don't see anybody
7
lighting the dynamite to blow us out of it.
8
to be a restructuring of attitude on the part of
9
governments, by the politicians, all of whom sat down at
There has
10
the Charlottetown Accord and signed this wonderful
11
agreement that we all managed to achieve but that was
12
rejected by people.
13
The political leadership appeared to
14
have adopted an accommodative mode and yet bureaucracies
15
under that political leadership are still acting as if
16
nothing has changed.
17
has appeared in the Constitution doesn't seem to have
18
accomplished anything very much in terms of the capacity
19
of Métis peoples, in particular, to access and exercise
20
their Aboriginal and Treaty rights and whatever benefits
21
that any given community might be entitled to as a result
22
of that.
23
As you say, the fact that "Métis"
Somehow, somewhere, the bureaucracies
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of the governments of this country have to get the idea
2
that they will be paid to be accommodative, that they will
3
get a buck up the ladder, they will get their promotions,
4
they will get their raises if they come up with ways of
5
accommodating us instead of ways of defeating us, which
6
is basically what we are faced with now.
7
So, simply because that doesn't get
8
expressed very often -- and I'm not sure why, I thought
9
it should be made a point of here, in terms particularly
10
of the policy development groups that are going to be
11
working from now until the end of the report.
12
they can find ways to address this so that specific
13
recommendations can be made to change the conflict
14
management mode of government attitudes to one of
15
accommodating, positive accommodation, of Aboriginal
16
peoples and their aspirations simply because I think
17
that's, in the long run, the least expensive way to go.
18
19
I am hoping
Thank you
very much, Martin.
20
Richard?
21
RICHARD LAFFERTY:
Thank you.
I have
22
a list of impediments and I think it's something different
23
to what has been said around the tables that I have been
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sitting at or even sitting in the back rooms.
2
I believe the greatest impediment to
3
Métis self-government or Métis anything, for that matter,
4
is the education system.
5
initial stages of education and in fact it even starts
6
in the homes before the education system starts because
7
their parents are misinformed from the education system.
8
It starts right at the very
It's cyclical.
9
Going through elementary school and high
10
school, the only thing I heard about Métis is what a bunch
11
of scoundrels they were in trying to define a place for
12
themselves in the Prairies and they were defeated in this
13
great battle and their leader was hung because he was a
14
mad man.
Then I get into university.
15
After coming to terms with what I learned
16
in elementary and high school and going to the elders and
17
understanding that that's not the case, I decided that
18
the university would be a place to be because, from what
19
they were telling me, it's a great place of open learning
20
and understanding and you could present any position you
21
like there and it will be looked upon for its merits and
22
its grammatical correctness.
23
grammatical mistakes in the last few years, so there must
I haven't had very many
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2
be something in the content that they weren't liking.
It's not only the systems and the
3
structures themselves, it's the non-Aboriginal students
4
who don't have the benefit of going back to their elders
5
and finding out that it's not true that the Métis were
6
just a bunch of scoundrels and their leader was retarded,
7
or whatever, and hung for that purpose.
8
those benefits, so they will never find the truth.
9
They don't have
I believe that any self-government
10
process must take into account in the beginning some input
11
into the education system.
12
part of their curriculum, whether it is a separate class
13
or whatever on Aboriginal issues or it's incorporated into
14
the core curriculums as they exist.
They have to be able to define
15
Something of that nature has to be done,
16
otherwise we will still be fighting in another 200 years
17
with the same governments and the same non-Aboriginal
18
people with the same attitudes who still don't understand
19
who Aboriginal people are and where they come from and
20
what their concerns are all about.
21
I believe that you guys have heard enough
22
with respect to government structures and those type of
23
impediments and I just thought I would leave that with
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you.
Thank you.
2
3
Richard.
4
5
Thank you,
Could you please identify yourself for
the record?
6
ANDY FROST, Spokesperson, Métis Nation
7
of Quebec:
For the question of what is preventing the
8
Métis people from achieving their aspirations, in Quebec
9
-- I can't speak for the rest of the people because I don't
10
know their situations; I'm not a politician, I just know
11
what goes on in my area -- in Quebec we have representation
12
from an organization, which gets a core funding from the
13
federal government.
14
There is no input in the core funding
15
from the provincial level, yet the provincial government
16
is tied in with housing programs at the federal level and
17
they give certain amounts of money every year for housing
18
projects, to build low-rental homes or to renovate or
19
whatever, and they always give this on the pretext of saying
20
that they are giving it to the Native people of the
21
province, the way it is structured down to us.
22
23
They put the Métis in with the Native
people.
We are part of the great Native brotherhood, but
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we are also a distinct people as a Métis people.
2
personal view is we don't need to hang onto the shirttails
3
of other distinct people to get what we are getting.
4
My
We should be able to stand on our own
5
and say, "We are Métis people.
We are not Native people
6
or we are not" -- I don't know if I'm choosing my words
7
right because I'm not a great speaker, but I guess what
8
I am trying to say is that the Métis people of Quebec have
9
among them people starting to realize that the governments
10
are the ones who are putting barriers against them by
11
rolling them all into one ball and saying, "You are covered
12
by the Natives, you are under the Natives."
13
14
But we are a totally different people.
We are not Native and we are not from our other -- we
15
are both, we walk in both worlds.
16
both worlds and all we want to do is try and get the respect
17
that I think we properly deserve because we are part of
18
Canadian history and we want to be part of the Canadian
19
future.
20
We have the best of
What this other gentleman was saying
21
about the school systems is very important.
22
to share with you a little experience that happened not
23
long ago.
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I have a daughter, she is 15 -- just
2
turned 16.
3
and the teacher was saying, "Louis Riel did this and Louis
4
Riel did that", and my daughter turned around and said,
5
"Yes, but he was trying to build a nation for his people."
6
They were taking a history class at school
She says, "Well, what are you are talking about?"
So,
7
she said, "Well, my dad is involved right now with certain
8
people and they are trying to build a nation for their
9
people in Quebec."
10
The teacher turned around and said,
11
"Well, you are not Native.
12
are green.
13
things like that."
14
"I don't need you to tell me who I am", and then it started
15
a controversy because they phoned me, "Your daughter was
16
bold."
17
Your hair is red and your eyes
Who are you to say?
You shouldn't be saying
So, she turned around and she said,
I felt that she wasn't because she was
18
standing up for what she was.
But if I would not have
19
told the teacher that I would talk to her and tell her
20
not to be so bold, if I didn't tell that to the teacher,
21
the repercussions for her later at school would have maybe
22
impeded her progress in the class, which might have held
23
her back.
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It's really hard to be Métis because the
2
only recognition you get is from your own people.
3
here, we have always been here.
4
we will always be here.
5
who you are or who you can be, I think they have to open
6
their minds and realize that we are a product of two great
7
peoples and that we sometimes walk on both sides of the
8
road.
9
who we are.
10
We are
The sign of infinity;
The ideal of governments saying
But when we get right down to the basics, we are
Until we get the proper recognition and
11
our proper place -- I don't know what the proper place
12
is because I'm not a politician, but why don't we sit at
13
the Assembly of First Nations as a founding nation of this
14
country or why don't we have any representatives as other
15
Native people, Native nations have on their own police
16
forces, in the educational system?
17
Just in the education system, it's very
18
hard for my daughter, for example, to go to the school
19
guidance counsellor because he doesn't understand her
20
culture and where she is coming from and what she is living
21
at home and how she is being raised in her culture.
22
this is brought out at school, it's sort of put aside and
23
it's sort of forced upon them to be ashamed of that and
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not to be proud of that and not to hold it out.
2
part of a process that's going to have to be brought in
3
not only to educate our children, but educate, I think,
4
all of Canada and the process has to come from a political
5
process.
6
It's all
So, what I would like the Royal
7
Commission to recommend to the federal government is to
8
try and implant also what the other gentleman was saying,
9
something in the school curriculum where the children would
10
be taught both sides of the story, not just one, or they
11
could be taught to be proud of their heritage and their
12
culture and not be ashamed to take an active part in
13
anything they do and stand out and say, "I'm a Métis and
14
I'm going to participate and I'm going to give everything
15
I have", instead of just saying, "I'm not good enough,
16
I'm ashamed of who I am and that's what I am taught.
17
am taught to be ashamed of who I am and I am taught to
18
hide it."
19
I
Instead of doing that, it should be
20
turned around.
It's kind of a cultural genocide because
21
our children are our future.
22
we want the best for them.
23
all the problems we had and we don't want them to forget
We look at our children and
We don't want them to have
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us and forget our culture and forget that they have an
2
important role to play in the future.
3
not allowed to be taught about their culture or when they
4
are taught at home and it's brought up in the school system
5
where it is shunned and put aside and there's no discussion
6
on it, it's a grave injustice, not only toward the children
7
but towards the children's parents and toward our
8
ancestors.
9
But if they are
Maybe the Royal Commission can help in
10
that way, to start helping to heal our people also.
11
healing process starts with our young.
12
and they are born pure.
13
born like that, they grow into what we teach them and what
14
we hand down to them and if we can start handing them back
15
what was given, maybe then we can take our place with the
16
future of Canada, not only in a hidden part of the history
17
of Canada.
The young are pure
They grow corrupt.
18
Thank you.
19
20
They are not
That's all I have to say.
Thank you
very much.
21
Greg?
22
GREG SCHOFIELD:
23
The
am referring to Question 3.
Just quickly here, I
I hope I am not jumping ahead
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or anything, but one of the things that I would like to
2
pose and to talk about really quickly are some of the
3
impediments that we are feeling in B.C. with the Aboriginal
4
people there, with the First Nations people there.
5
With the move towards self-government
6
for First Nations people, for us it's kind of an overall
7
concern that, as Métis people, we will not be represented
8
or recognized accurately in that whole restructuring and
9
everything and that we will not receive the financial
10
support that we need for our programs, et cetera.
11
I have heard different people talk along
12
the lines of the oppressed, who now become the oppressors
13
within their own -- looking at the whole Aboriginal
14
picture, if that is to include to the Indian people, status
15
Indian people, non-stats, Inuit and the Métis people.
16
That's broken into all these different categories, with
17
women, and on and on and on.
18
concerns, more so in British Columbia with the majority
19
of the First Nations people being a matrilineal society.
20
Even if their blood lines denote children as Métis or
21
half-breeds, they are still considered Indian or First
22
Nations by the community.
23
So, that's one of our
If anybody would like to comment on this,
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maybe the Commission on any of their ideas or solutions
2
or my fellow delegates, it would be appreciated.
3
you.
Thank
4
Thank you.
5
Michael?
6
MICHAEL McGUIRE, President, Ontario
7
Métis Aboriginal Association:
I think in Ontario I go
8
back quite a few years in organizing, a lot of people,
9
Métis people, in organizing a lot of stuff.
When we first
10
started, I was the one responsible for putting up the signs
11
and I put up the signs as Métis only, and I would put those
12
words on the bottom of the thing.
13
When we had our meetings with
14
governments, the Indian Community Branch at the time, they
15
said that wasn't possible for us to do that and we couldn't
16
do that.
17
around this table because the Métis are starting to get
18
organized, the responsibility of the other ethnic groups
19
within the community is not all our responsibility.
20
Our attitude was the attitude of a lot of people
We have changed our by-laws, even from
21
day one, because a lot of us didn't understand who the
22
Métis people were or who the non-status Indians were.
23
So, when we formed that group, I made the motion to call
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it the Ontario Métis and Non-Status Indian Association
2
and that name stood up to quite a few years until we got
3
in the Constitution and the name is not Ontario Métis
4
Aboriginal Association.
5
two groups in there that are today working together for
6
community things.
So, we still have two people and
7
We still have the question of Métis and
8
I think one of the solutions that would be helpful from
9
the federal government is, if they can formally recognize
10
Métis people under section 91(24), that would be a
11
definitive, positive thing for us.
12
The other question on self-government
13
is on the land use.
14
to have some kind of a land base, not as a reserve, I don't
15
think, but, as my friend Henry said this morning, I think
16
it's 3,500 square miles right now that we want to use
17
because we have to pay for self-government somehow and
18
we have to get into taxation.
19
part of it.
20
because right now in Ontario a lot of the communities want
21
to get into self-government.
22
is aware of that.
23
We have to get into that.
We have
I don't want to avoid that
We can't become burdens on the federal system
I am sure the Commission
Anyway, I think, just to cut it real nice
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and short because I can tell you stories for three hours,
2
a formal recognition under 91(24) would be a definite,
3
positive one for us and some sort of self-government in
4
land.
5
says, that's part of it.
We have to have land.
6
I don't care what anybody
The people from Labrador, I listened to
7
them very intently talking.
8
the same problem at one point in our history.
9
forming in 1965 and in 1967 we formed the Lake Nipigon
10
Métis Association.
11
anything at all.
12
people.
13
we had meetings there.
14
In Ontario we had pretty well
We started
We still couldn't get nowhere in
We were talking to a lot of government
In 1969 we said, "Piss on everybody else", and
We said we wanted to use our lake.
They told us, no, we can't do that.
15
So, a bunch of us got together and we
16
asked them again and we told them at that time that if
17
that lake is not good enough for the Métis people, it's
18
not going to be good enough for the Indian people, nor
19
will it be good enough for the white people.
20
us, "What would you guys do?"
21
that lake up.
22
will put smelts in the lake, and if that don't screw your
23
lake up, we are going to blow your hydro dams off that
They asked
We said, "We will screw
We will put lamprey eels in the lake, we
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Lake Nipigon."
2
So, we had to do something.
Even by saying that, it wasn't just
3
somebody saying that.
4
that of people who put their lives on the line at that
5
time in order to do this.
6
didn't have to carry out those things.
7
the Trudeau government that came down with a fishing
8
licence for the Métis people on Lake Nipigon.
9
be a route that Labrador people have to do.
10
There was actual movement behind
They were forcing it that we
I think it was
That might
It's a terrible
way to go, but if you have to get recognition.
11
Certainly Louis Riel sacrificed his life
12
for us to be here today and throughout history I don't
13
think Riel was alone when he got hung that time.
14
there was 68 Indian Chiefs also who were on the end of
15
that same rope and I don't think we should forget those
16
kinds of people.
I think
17
We heard a lot today from the women that
18
talked here and we certainly appreciate all their views
19
that they talked about.
20
movement, we also helped and talked to our Métis women
21
and they formed the Lake Nipigon Métis Women's Auxiliary.
22
That later became the Ontario Native Women's Association
23
When we formed in Ontario our
and that's one group that was working really hard
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throughout all these years and doing one hell of a good
2
job.
3
development of our people.
ONWA, in itself, was doing their own thing for the
4
In saying all that, I think we could get
5
formal recognition under 91(24).
6
different, it's people who make us different.
7
right within our own communities makes us different people.
8
Yesterday Georges had talked when he was
9
talking about land.
We don't make ourselves
The people
Definitely we are recognized under
10
the Treaty, the half-breed adhesion to that area, but that
11
was over 100 years ago.
12
then.
Certainly we multiplied more since
The needs of our people have multiplied also.
13
The question about the schools in the
14
education system is something that was -- and I guess we
15
can relate individual stories that happened to a lot of
16
us.
17
to be charged."
18
be charged with?"
19
did you assault anybody?
20
said 'hello' to the bus driver", and that's all he did.
21
Last year my son came home and he said, "I'm going
I said, "What the hell are you going to
He said, "For assault."
What did you do?"
I said, "How
He said, "I
So, we went up to the school.
My wife
22
and I went up there and we talked and the principal said,
23
"I can't talk to you today, my bosses are here."
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"Your bosses are the people that I want to talk to."
2
So, we went through that and we find out
3
that the bus driver is under a lot of pressure.
4
"Don't you think it's dangerous with somebody under a lot
5
of pressure driving our kids around?"
6
"There is one other thing I would like to really find out.
7
We hear about the high drop-out of students from our
8
schools.
9
record."
10
I said,
I also told him,
The other thing is they always have a criminal
I always wondered in my mind, because
11
I see my kids playing with other kids and they are not
12
called anything else but kids, they are playing.
13
"I always wanted to know what the magic age would be that
14
my kid would get a criminal charge on him and he would
15
get frustrated and drop out."
16
age 13", unlucky 13, I guess, "because right now the
17
principals here are going to be laying charges against
18
my boy just for saying 'hello'.
19
ones that are responsible for getting our kids to drop
20
out of school and that."
I said,
So I said, "That must be
So, you people are the
That must be our magic number.
21
22
23
But to cut it right back down to the
point, I would definitely like to have my tribal people
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recognized under 91(24).
2
will define ourselves as we did throughout history.
3
Meegwetch.
4
5
As far as the definition, we
Thank you,
Michael.
6
Bernie?
7
BERNIE HEARD:
Thank you.
I would like
8
to thank Richard for bringing up the topic of education.
9
I forgot it and I totally agree with him it's one of the
10
greatest impediments we have.
11
In Labrador we are under, as you know,
12
the Newfoundland education system, and in the Newfoundland
13
education system, in the Newfoundland history portion of
14
the system in the primary schools, we learn precious little
15
about Labrador.
We might get three or four pages in the
16
entire textbook.
Basically, it tells you it's a cold place
17
and it's a place where the fishermen go in the summertime,
18
not much more.
19
other than to mention that there is eskimos living there.
It certainly ignores the Native people,
20
21
That's the same school system that Mr.
22
Wells grew up in and that I grew up with and, I presume,
23
Mary probably grew up with part of it.
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of the reason Mr. Wells is taking the stand he is and it's
2
also part of the reason he is getting away with it because
3
everybody else that's around him grew up with that same
4
education system that totally ignores the people of
5
Labrador, certainly makes no mention of any Native people
6
in Labrador, other than a passing reference to the Indians
7
and the eskimos.
8
A more recent event, one that really got
9
my ire up about two weeks ago, actually, three weeks ago,
10
the local school board operating out of Goose Bay which
11
manages most of the schools throughout Labrador, certainly
12
just about all the schools in our area, recently published
13
a brand new textbook on the Inuit of Labrador and it's
14
a good publication.
15
it's ever been done and it's now, I guess, put into the
16
school system.
17
I have seen it.
It's the first time
The author of this particular textbook
18
is not from Labrador and he did a good job.
19
him for it.
20
station about this new textbook and he mentioned in the
21
interview that he was planning two more, one on the Innu
22
of Labrador and a third one on the settlers.
23
I commend
He was interviewed on the local CBC Radio
This Commission might remember, some of
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the Commissioners may remember, that I took issue with
2
the word "settlers" when you met in Goose Bay.
3
"settler" implies European settler, European background
4
or Newfoundlanders or whomever.
5
mean, in my opinion -- and I think I am right -- it does
6
not mean the people that we call Métis.
7
what he meant when he said "settlers" last week or the
8
week before last and he is planning a textbook to deal
9
with the topic.
The word
It certainly does not
However, that's
10
I simply mention this as this is the sort
11
of thing that we are faced with all the time in the school
12
system.
13
of this particular book and I copied it to every politician
14
I could think of asking them to please reconsider the title
15
of his third book and don't call it "The Settlers".
I did, by the way, write a letter to the author
16
There are settlers in Labrador, don't
17
get me wrong.
There is a very small minority of people
18
in Labrador who I consider to be settlers and they are
19
the people who have come in there who have no Aboriginal
20
background.
21
coastal areas.
22
about for his third textbook.
23
with what he intended, even though the intention is good,
They are there.
They are there on the
But that's not the people he was talking
So, if he carries through
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it's still not going to get the message across, I guess
2
is what I'm saying.
3
I don't know what this Commission can
4
do about it, if anything.
The education system is a
5
provincial jurisdiction.
6
province to at least watch their choice of words on those
7
sorts of things that's going to become part of the school
8
curriculum for many years to come, I don't know.
9
it with you.
Perhaps a strong message to the
10
Thank you.
11
12
I leave
Thank you,
Bernie.
13
Monique?
14
MONIQUE McKAY, Special Advisor, Indian
15
& Métis Affairs Secretariat, Regina, Saskatchewan:
I just
16
want to ask either Garth or Richard, jumping to solutions
17
here, about the enumeration process in the Northwest
18
Territories, just to get some general background about
19
it.
20
definition that was used in the enumeration was arrived
21
at.
22
collected and what are the perceived benefits of that
23
enumeration by the Métis people in the N.W.T.?
I want to know who controls the process and how the
Who had input into that, what kind of data was
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GARTH WALLBRIDGE:
Thank you, Monique.
2
I'm not all that familiar with the
3
enumeration, I just have a general sense of it.
4
of who controls the process, I think perhaps I should go
5
back a step beyond that and indicate how it came about.
6
There had, in the Northwest Territories, as indeed in
7
other areas of this country, been talk of an enumeration
8
for a long time.
9
In terms
A little less than two years ago now at
10
our annual general assembly of the Métis nation, the
11
government leader, Nellie Cornier, who is still our
12
government leader, made an announcement that the
13
territorial government, through the Health Department,
14
would fund an enumeration, the idea being that at that
15
point in time the territorial government either just had
16
or was just about to obtain the responsibility for
17
delivering health care to status indians in the
18
Territories.
19
Because our government, the 24 MLAs --
20
there is a majority Aboriginal population, if you will,
21
or membership within our house -- it was an easy thing
22
to imagine that, depending on the fiscal considerations,
23
the G.N.W.T., as we refer to it, the Government of the
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Northwest Territories, would at least consider funding
2
health care for Métis people.
3
The bloom is off the rose somewhat at
4
this point in time now that the enumeration is done by
5
virtue of the fact that the G.N.W.T. is suing the federal
6
government over the actual funding for that delivery of
7
health care for the status Indians.
8
happened was the people involved in the negotiations
9
between the feds and the G.N.W.T. came up with a process
Basically, what
10
whereby the G.N.W.T. ended up with the responsibility,
11
but the documents weren't clear enough to indicate that
12
they also got the money to do it.
13
we would ever have an enumeration started afresh today,
14
but, in any case, that's why it was done.
15
So, I don't know if
The enumeration, I think, cost a total
16
of around $200,000.
It's not a whole bunch of money, but
17
then there are not that many people in the Northwest
18
Territories and it was only necessary to do the enumeration
19
on the ground in the western Arctic because in the east,
20
as most of us around the table will know, it's Nunavut,
21
it's a majority Inuit population and there were newspaper
22
advertisements and whatnot taken out in the east just to
23
ensure that if there were Métis living in those
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communities, they might then be enumerated.
2
Who controls the process, to answer your
3
first question; the Métis Nation, to my knowledge, does
4
it completely.
5
Métis Nation offices.
6
I have no idea.
7
beyond self-identity at the community level.
8
like Richard could fill us in a bit more on that one.
9
RICHARD LAFFERTY:
10
definition.
The whole process is done in-house at the
How a definition was arrived at,
I don't know that there is a definition
It looks
We have a general
There is three components to our definition.
11
We have a general definition and any Métis from anywhere
12
in the country can move to the Northwest Territories and
13
be considered Métis under this general definition.
14
it is is you self-identify and you prove that you have
15
Aboriginal background.
16
a Métis on a general registry, but that does not mean that
17
you are part of any local or that you have any rights,
18
as far as claims go, in the Northwest Territories.
19
All
On that you can be registered as
Every local -- well, I should start with
20
the region first.
Every region has its own specific
21
criteria which allows individuals to become part of the
22
claim process.
23
Territory and you are from the Saulteaux, which is in the
For instance, if you are in Gwich'n
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1
Northwest Territories as well, you can become part of the
2
local, but you are not eligible for benefits from the claim.
3
The local level is responsible for
4
defining who their local members are.
5
complicated, but it becomes quite clear once you see the
6
process.
7
part of their membership, but, above that, the Métis
8
Nation.
9
territory, but there is these claims things, which is a
10
tribal concept or a regional concept, if you want to put
11
it that way, which is for claims purposes.
12
13
GARTH WALLBRIDGE:
14
The locals are the ones who determine who is
You know, you can enrol as a Métis in the western
from there.
15
So, it sounds
Thank you.
Maybe I will go back
Thanks, Richard.
Actually, what Richard has done there
16
is given the definitional process that's in the by-laws
17
of the Northwest Territories Métis Nation and whatnot.
18
I'm not certain, but I suspect -- and Richard would know
19
this -- that that was the actual process as well used in
20
the enumeration because that's one thing we need to be
21
very careful about, that an enumeration is not a membership
22
list.
23
time dealing with.
That's one thing that people sometimes have a hard
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For instance, I do know that through the
2
process of enumeration in the
3
Territories many people who might otherwise have
4
self-identified and indeed do self-identify as Métis chose
5
not to be enumerated because of a concern that it was being
6
done by a political organization.
7
a concern, I think, in the Northwest Territories perhaps
8
because the politics of the day there are pretty neutral,
9
if that's the right word.
10
That wasn't too great
They are not so charged.
In terms of the data that was collected,
11
it was fairly broad.
I'm not certain, but there was about
12
four pages of questions and they were relatively small
13
print kind of questions.
14
data on each person as they chose to provide that and that's
15
just to create a master database.
16
on education levels attained, on the type of work in a
17
trade/profession, whatever, that someone was currently
18
involved in, sort of some general data like that that was
19
collected to be used for other purposes as time went on.
20
The whole thing probably took -- well,
There was general genealogical
There was information
21
I did it for myself and my two children.
22
the three of them probably didn't take me an hour.
23
perhaps 20 to 30 minutes for the first one and a little
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less for the others.
2
there to be of real benefit.
3
sort of digested and massaged for other purposes in terms
4
of creating analysis that people can use.
5
hit my desk.
6
who heads up that program for us, is now starting to work
7
with that stuff.
8
I think there is enough information
That's just starting to be
I haven't even read it yet.
Something just
Michael Goldney,
The perceived benefits.
A personal
9
suggestion that I would offer by way of a benefit is that
10
right off the bat a benefit is that something is happening.
11
Instead of people just sitting around talking about things
12
happening, what should be done is an enumeration, a
13
registry, defining who the Métis are, getting a land base,
14
all those kinds of things which are very important things
15
to discuss.
16
of pride that something is happening and that is that this
17
enumeration is occurring.
18
In fact what is happening is there is a sense
On that alone, I would suggest that's
19
a major, major benefit.
20
some way to fund even the most basic enumeration just to
21
take that first step in terms of developing that kind of
22
a database, I think there is real value in that.
23
If only every area could find
That's pretty much how I would give an
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overview.
2
are any.
I would certainly take questions on it, if there
3
4
very much.
5
6
Thank you
You had something to add?
Go ahead,
Richard.
7
RICHARD LAFFERTY:
The paper here he is
8
referring to that Michael Goldney has prepared is an
9
analysis of the data of the questions that Garth was
10
referring to.
11
about 80 to 85 per cent of the Métis in the Territories
12
actually registered through the enumeration process, it
13
gives us a very good indication of the problems that are
14
there, the social problems, and it shows the level, like
15
the gentleman over here was referring to, where people
16
drop out.
17
Although it's estimated that we only got
It doesn't say why, but it gives you
18
definite indications of where people start to drop out,
19
the grade level sort of idea, which indicates age in a
20
lot of ways.
21
it, although in doing that there is concern that adding
22
those questions is the reason why we lost the other maybe
23
15 to 20 per cent of the Métis.
So, there is good, hard information from
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One thing that Garth touched on is that
2
it does instill a sense of pride.
You see people coming
3
who are Bill C-31 status -- you know, they have their Bill
4
C-31 status now -- and always considered themselves Métis,
5
but had no other option because once the Dene/Métis land
6
claims process fell, they were just kind of left hanging
7
and there was no process for Métis.
8
an enumeration process and they are standing along with
9
other Métis and it does instill a sense of pride.
But now they have
10
Thank you.
11
12
13
Thanks,
Richard.
I am going to remind speakers to make
14
it short and sweet.
I am trying to save some time.
15
Commissioners have questions as well.
16
it this way, then we will feed back that way.
So, if you feed
17
I have five speakers.
18
FRANK PALMATER:
19
feeling you were telling me to be short and sweet?
20
The
Frank?
Why do I get the
On the paperwork that was passed out,
21
impediments and solutions, some of the solutions are
22
identified when you identify the impediments.
23
and you heard over the last two days a whole bunch of things
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that are wrong, a whole bunch of things that in the
2
community are not as rosy as we would like it.
3
All through it I keep thinking about the
4
Charlottetown Accord and what the Accord promised to
5
Aboriginal people; that is, equity of access.
6
Aboriginal people would be guaranteed equity of access.
7
If you didn't get it, you could sue the guys, you could
All
8
take them to court.
There was a mechanism to fund you,
9
to allow you to take them to court and prove your point.
10
11
The Royal Commission can best serve the
12
Métis by making sure that whenever there are discussions,
13
negotiations, programs and services, whatever government
14
service is provided by either level of government must
15
be accessible to all Aboriginal people.
16
to the programs and services, make that recommendation
17
to the government.
18
Equity of access
In your solutions you ask questions.
19
Is recognition under 91(24) part of the solution?
Yes,
20
definitely it is.
21
included in that that demands equity of access.
22
isn't provided, then there is a way that we can make sure
23
that it is, through the court system, through a system
Federal legislation should also be
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that everyone recognizes has some powers of forcing them
2
to deal with the issues.
3
court's decision in this country, not everyone agrees with
4
it, but there is some power there through the court system
5
that you can recommend to the government so that we get
6
that equity of access.
7
Not everyone recognizes the
Self-government.
Is some form of
8
self-government part of the solution?
Yes, through the
9
equity of access provisions that we hope are in there.
10
If you are going to have self-government for status on
11
reserve, by jingers you are going to have self-government
12
for status off reserve and Métis off reserve and women
13
off reserve.
14
It has to be there, equity of access.
15
If someone is not getting that service, take the guy to
16
court, take the woman to court.
17
mechanism to do that.
18
to be able to force the issue.
19
There has to be some
That's the only way we are going
The people who did up the Charlottetown
20
Accord -- and in the province of New Brunswick, by the
21
way, it was accepted, 68 per cent, including the Aboriginal
22
community, because they were informed as to what the
23
Charlottetown Accord meant.
It meant that the ones who
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considered themselves the forgotten people would no longer
2
be forgotten.
3
to the programs and services that government decided should
4
go to Aboriginal people.
They was a way we had guaranteed access
5
So, the whole question and the solution
6
is guaranteed legislated equity of access for all
7
Aboriginal people.
8
make it.
9
10
That's as short and sweet as I can
Thanks for
your cooperation.
11
Kirby?
12
KIRBY LETHBRIDGE:
13
I am sorry I was a little bit late getting
14
No reminder?
back.
15
Solutions.
I think the number one thing
16
is that the federal government recognize its obligation
17
to all Aboriginal people, to Métis people, wherever they
18
originate in this country, and to understand once and for
19
all that Métisism has nothing to do with Euro-ethnicity
20
and geography.
21
corner, it's something that happened all across this
22
country.
23
It's not something that was done in a
So, recognition under section 91(24);
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absolutely.
2
various federal departments.
3
relationship with the federal government one-on-one,
4
nation-to-nation as our nations evolve and we have to be
5
involved a capacity of sharing jurisdiction with the
6
federal government without any interference from the
7
provinces.
8
9
It has to be reflected in policy of the
There has to be a
I would like to comment on something that
took place last summer up in Eagle River in Labrador.
10
I went into that place with Ron George, who I would like
11
to acknowledge was here a few minutes ago -- I think he
12
stepped out of the room -- and with some cousins of mine
13
from Eagle River, a place where my grandfather was born
14
and my great grandfather was born there.
15
first people to actually settle there. They were all a
16
mixed race, Aboriginal people -- call them whatever you
17
want -- human beings.
18
They were the
We went into that place, where some very
19
powerful people had set up recreation fishing camps.
They
20
had been there about 30 years.
21
have to have some respect for the people who were here
22
first", and I said, "Exactly, that's what we are doing."
They said, "Listen, you
23
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We had our nets seized the first day.
2
The next time we went out, they came in and they flew
3
in, as I said yesterday, in a very powerful wealthy man's
4
private helicopter.
5
and they brought in the RCMP as well.
6
and a helicopter.
7
of DND helicopters hovering around photographing us every
8
move we made.
9
somebody on the bank on the other side of the river.
10
He flew in the fisheries officers
There were two boats
On top of that, there were a couple
If we went to the outhouse, there was
They came up and they arrested me and
11
my cousin, Robert Brown.
12
a community I grew up in, about 18 miles away in a boat.
13
They took us down to Cartwright,
We passed at least five phones before we got into
14
Cartwright.
15
an opportunity to use the telephone.
16
supper until nearly midnight that night in a jail cell
17
in Goose Bay.
18
that night.
19
We went into their office, we did not have
We didn't get any
We got to use the phone about 10:00 o'clock
We were arrested at 4:30 in the evening.
They released us the next morning.
They
20
chartered a plane, too, by the way, to fly us into Goose
21
Bay from Cartwright, about 150 miles.
22
the floor of the aircraft.
23
I had to put a seat belt on and strap myself to the floor.
I had to sit on
There was no seat for me and
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2
It may not seem like much to some people, but it was very,
very wrong, inherently wrong.
3
They released us from jail the next
4
morning.
5
"We decided not to charge you yet."
6
get approval.
7
was it.
8
nets and everything and we were just going to go away and
9
forget about it.
10
11
River?
I said, "Why are you releasing us?"
They said,
They had to wait to
They figured we were off the river and that
They had taken our boat and our motor and our
We said, "How do we get back to Eagle
You brought us in here, you should bring us back."
They said, "That's your problem."
This was the area
12
director of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and
13
the RCMP.
14
So, I think one of the areas that we could
15
see government improve its relationship with Aboriginal
16
people is to cease from abusing us and cease from
17
prosecuting us.
18
1st of March and they postponed into October and maybe
19
November.
20
the government make a change, is to cease from prosecuting
21
our people.
22
23
We were supposed to go to court on the
So, that's one area that I would like to see
We weren't doing anything wrong there.
We caught a few salmon and we took them in front of a
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place that used to be the old Hudson's Bay Company store,
2
we cut them up and we made sure that they were passed out
3
to the proper people.
4
about it.
5
You know, we didn't feel a bit guilty
One last thing I would like to say.
The
6
Constitution of the Métis Nation in Quebec, I believe,
7
was tabled by Réjan Pilote today.
8
that's going to become part of the record for the Royal
9
Commission.
I am assuming that
When that's made available in English, is
10
it possible that we could have the English version of that
11
mailed out to our Association?
12
of the Constitution of the Métis Nation of Quebec, which
13
was given to the Royal Commission, I believe today, we
14
would like to have a copy of it in English.
15
The English translation
I believe he
16
had English copies of the Constitution, but not of the
17
booklet.
18
19
KIRBY LETHBRIDGE:
This is the one that
I am thinking of here, then, yes.
20
That's all I have to say, thank you.
21
22
23
very much, Kirby.
Donavon?
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DONAVON YOUNG:
Thanks, K.C.
Just a
2
question for the Labrador delegates and perhaps even for
3
the Quebec delegates.
4
to ask since we are working on Métis self-government
5
options for the Commission.
It's a clarification that I need
6
If you look at where I am from and what
7
I am familiar with most, the Prairies, and self-government
8
arrangements, if you look at where the Métis are at in
9
terms of self-government, there have been self-governing
10
institutions operating or self-administering programs at
11
least, but some semi-autonomous self-governing
12
institutions operating on the Prairies for 10, 12 years,
13
some economic development institutions for the last five
14
or six years.
15
In Saskatchewan, if you look at some of
16
the northern communities, many of which are Métis, they
17
have control of their village councils and have control
18
of that governing structure through village councils.
19
In the Métis settlements we see pretty well the full range
20
of municipal services and programs have been accorded to
21
those settlements and even some are in the process of
22
gaining some provincial responsibilities or some
23
authorities generally under provincial jurisdiction.
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we see a lot of these developments in the Prairies.
2
When we look at options for
3
self-government for the Prairies again, we are looking
4
at enhanced models of municipal self-government perhaps,
5
either ethnic or public.
6
forms of self-government where communities would come
7
together and cooperate in providing services and programs.
We are looking at some regional
8
So, when I look at the stage of development that the
9
Prairie Métis are at and the stage of development that
10
the Labrador and the Quebec Métis are at, my perception
11
is -- and I don't think I am wrong here -- is that there
12
are some sharp distinctions.
13
I have heard you say that the fundamental
14
problem, the big issue to overcome in both Quebec and
15
Labrador, is lack of recognition, federally and
16
provincially.
17
problem on the Prairies.
18
are looking at potential recommendations around
19
self-government and what the Commission can do
20
specifically with regard to Labrador and Quebec, what are
21
we talking about in terms of self-government?
22
23
I don't think that's the fundamental
So, my question is:
When we
It's kind of related to this morning's
discussion.
We didn't really get to it, but are we talking
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about a municipal style of self-government, are we talking
2
about self-governing institutions?
3
You mentioned that you are seeking core
4
funding.
Most Métis organizations and institutions have
5
been core-funded on the Prairies for 15 years.
6
at where you are at and where the Métis on the Prairies
7
were at in the late 1960s, early 1970s, and I see some
8
similarities.
So, I look
I see about a 20-year time difference.
9
So, I am really looking for assistance
10
here because I don't see the same sort of options, the
11
same policy options, the same sort of recommendations
12
applying to the Prairie Métis as I do to the Labrador and
13
the Quebec Métis.
14
far apart.
15
practical help here in terms of self-government
16
recommendations or just generally, recommendations around
17
recognition, process-oriented recommendations.
The stages of development are just too
So, I am looking for some real concrete and
18
Is my request clear enough?
19
20
is long enough.
21
Could I go to Claude?
22
CLAUDE AUBIN:
23
It certainly
Je pense que je vais
faire une tentative de répondre à ça.
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Premièrement, j'aimerais vous
2
souligner, mon cher monsieur, que c'est très confus dans
3
la présentation de votre perception.
4
Premières Nations du Canada s'assoient autour d'une table
5
de négociation, elles s'assoient autour d'une table comme
6
entité souveraine nationale.
7
l'on parle de cette entité nationale là, et lorsque les
8
Métis s'assoient autour d'une table pour négocier avec
9
le gouvernement fédéral, ils s'assoient, oui, dans une
Lorsque les
Mais ça fait deux jours que
10
entité nationale mais pas dans une entité nationale
11
interprétée par l'infrastructure.
12
Toute l'infrastructure, ce sont des
13
corporations de services.
14
cette structure d'autonomie gouvernementale nation à
15
nation.
16
On n'a pas encore abouti à avoir
Vous dites qu'on est peut-être 20 ans
17
en arrière.
Je vais vous redonner l'heure juste en
18
fonction de qu'est-ce qu'on veut dire par "nation
19
building", qu'est-ce que ça veut dire, "self-government".
20
Il y a un ancien chez nous qui a dit -- et même d'autres
21
anciens l'ont dit -- "Self-government is:
22
business".
23
Mind your own
Voyez-vous, si on veut développer
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l'autonomie gouvernementale -- j'avais marqué pas mal de
2
choses ici, mais elles ont été touchées -- il va falloir
3
que le gouvernement... voyez-vous, nous autres, on est
4
à l'étape de se faire reconnaître comme entité nationale
5
tandis que les Premières Nations le sont déjà.
6
parlons d'équité.
7
accepte la nation métisse comme une entité nationale
8
distincte souveraine.
9
Donc
Disons que le gouvernement fédéral
À ce moment-là, c'est une
10
reconnaissance... je suis obligé de me servir du terme
11
anglais présentement parce que je suis habitué de
12
l'entendre en anglais et je ne veux pas qu'il se perde
13
dans la traduction; it's a recognition of Métis people
14
as a nation of peoples.
15
de négocier.
16
vous avez parlé tout à l'heure pour des corporations
17
strictement de services ou l'application de l'autonomie
18
gouvernementale dans des corporations de services, au
19
Québec, au contraire, nous voulons négocier de nation à
20
nation et nous voulons même prendre le temps de développer
21
cette autonomie gouvernementale sur une base nationale
22
et non corporative.
23
À ce moment-là, on devrait arrêter
Je pense que la distinction entre ce dont
Donc nous ne voulons pas négocier, la
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nation du Canada avec la corporation de la nation métisse
2
au Québec; non, on ne le fera pas.
3
plusieurs années.
On aime autant attendre
4
Deuxièmement, c'est qu'on voudrait...
5
je pense que là, il faut le dire clairement, et il nous
6
reste à peu près une heure pour le dire, et je le dis comme
7
ceci:
8
on sait ce que l'on veut et ce que nous sommes.
9
de ça, nous allons prendre... comme j'ai marqué en anglais,
10
11
Laissez-nous prendre soin de nous-mêmes.
Nous,
À partir
we'll take care of the rest.
On est prêt à négocier, mais on est prêt
12
à négocier au Québec de nation à nation.
13
prêt et on ne veut pas négocier une entité corporative
14
de services, pour donner des services à notre population.
15
16
On aime mieux attendre.
On n'est pas
C'est trop important.
Lorsqu'on parle d'équité d'accès dans
17
un contexte d'une grande confédération des nations
18
autochtones au Canada, nous voulons nous asseoir à une
19
table de négociation avec nos frères de toutes les
20
Premières Nations du Canada comme nations.
21
ça, c'est l'équité totale.
Je pense que
22
Je vous laisse vous-mêmes et je laisse
23
à la Commission étaler et comparer ce qu'on veut dire par
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"équité d'accès", parce que -- on n'a pas besoin de le
2
définir -- vous avez un ministère complet avec 4 500
3
employés pour desservir la population des Premières
4
Nations et vous n'avez rien de l'autre côté pour desservir
5
la population métisse au Canada, sauf des petits
6
programmes.
7
d'accès.
Alors à ce moment-là, parlons d'équité
8
Ça fait que de nation à nation... nous
9
sommes une nation, nous ne sommes pas des corporations.
10
Je vous remercie.
11
Just before
12
you begin, Réjan, perhaps Bernie or Kirby might want to
13
respond to Donavon's question.
14
BERNIE HEARD:
Thank you.
With respect
15
to self-government from the Labrador Métis point of view
16
-- and Kirby will bring me up, I am sure, if I step out
17
of line here, and Mary will also -- we agree that we are
18
light years behind you folks out west.
19
the newest -- not probably, we are the newest, that I know
20
of, Aboriginal or certainly Métis group in the country.
21
We are what I would call a very fledgling organization
22
23
We are probably
in this respect.
As I said before, we have no core
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funding.
2
discussions, never mind self-government, on any topic,
3
meaningful discussions with our membership, because we
4
are so scattered.
5
of coastline that's one of the most isolated coasts in
6
Canada, short of the Arctic Ocean.
7
isolated.
8
9
We have not been able to have any meaningful
We cover an area of about 350, 400 miles
It is the most
It's very costly to travel.
money.
Even telephones are costly.
We have no
So, we haven't really
10
reached the stage where we have been able to get any
11
meaningful discussions with our membership on this topic,
12
except in a very, very basic way.
13
We don't know at this stage what form
14
of self-government we would even be looking at.
15
honestly don't know that right now because we haven't been
16
able to sit down and really discuss it.
17
at such things as some kind of control over the natural
18
resources in our area, some kind of control over social
19
services, not necessarily all the social services but
20
things like health and education, perhaps housing, I don't
21
know.
22
23
We
We are looking
But again these are the thoughts of our
executive that have talked about this.
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know what our membership would feel on those lines.
The
2
form that we ultimately will, hopefully, come up with for
3
self-government for the Labrador Métis, frankly, may never
4
be the same as you are doing out west.
5
totally different, we don't know that.
It may be something
6
What I would like to say, however, is
7
that we are wide open for help and assistance from anybody
8
who has gone through the process.
9
do to help us, we would gratefully accept it and appreciate
10
So, anything you can
it.
11
Thank you.
12
13
Thank you
very much.
14
I have three more speakers and I would
15
like to give some time to the Commissioners to ask questions
16
of you.
17
Réjan?
18
RÉJAN PILOTE:
J'aimerais parler sur
19
les questions d'obstacles et tout le kit, puis je vais
20
revenir peut-être sur certains commentaires ou certaines
21
questions qui ont été posées.
22
23
Je suis d'accord avec les différentes
personnes qui ont parlé avant moi, et je ne veux pas
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recommencer, mais je pense qu'un des points les plus
2
importants, c'est l'éducation et la promotion culturelle
3
de l'identité des Métis au Québec.
4
aussi un point très important au Québec.
5
important d'être reconnu par les gens, ce qui est le plus
6
important, c'est de nous reconnaître nous-mêmes, savoir
7
qui on est.
8
questionné par qui que ce soit, il n'y a plus personne
9
pour nous faire revenir sur notre décision.
10
La reconnaissance est
Et même si c'est
À ce moment-là, on a beau être critiqué ou
Pour la population métisse, la
11
population de la nation métisse au Québec, on ne peut plus
12
revenir en arrière.
13
décidé d'aller de l'avant, et il n'y a aucun obstacle...
14
aucun; on a beau les nommer et en remettre encore le double
15
et le triple, il n'y a aucun obstacle qui va nous empêcher
16
d'atteindre notre objectif.
17
alloué pour atteindre ces objectifs-là; on va les
18
atteindre.
19
Notre décision est prise.
On a
Il n'y a pas non plus de temps
Maintenant, je pense que toutes nos
20
recommandations qui ont été faites... on a fait certains
21
commentaires.
22
que j'ai fait avant ça.
23
font partie du document que nous avons déposé.
Je ne veux pas revenir sur les commentaires
L'ensemble de nos recommandations
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déjà fait une présentation à Montréal qui contenait une
2
partie de ces recommandations-là.
3
mettre notre structure gouvernementale en place, et on
4
pense que c'est une des solutions qui va nous aider à
5
accélérer un petit peu le processus et à rétablir l'équité,
6
même si je pense que toute l'injustice dont nous avons
7
souffert au cours des années... je pense que ça va prendre
8
bien du temps avant qu'il y ait vraiment une certaine forme
9
d'équité ou une apparence d'équité envers le peuple métis,
10
peu importe où il est au Canada et principalement au Québec.
11
Nous sommes prêts à
Comment est-ce que la Commission peut
12
nous aider?
13
aider, c'est de faire que tout ce qu'on a écrit ou tout
14
ce qu'on a dit ne soit pas lettre morte.
15
participé à plusieurs comités, j'ai participé à plusieurs
16
commissions, à plusieurs forums, dont des forums
17
constitutionnels, et assez souvent, ce qu'on dit et ce
18
qu'on écrit disparaît ou est mis sur une tablette et on
19
n'en entend plus jamais parler.
20
Je pense que la seule façon qu'elle peut nous
Moi, j'ai
M. Dussault nous a dit hier soir qu'il
21
restait peut-être une année à la vie de la Commission.
22
On espère que d'ici la fin de l'existence de cette
23
Commission, il y aura des actions qui seront prises, il
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y aura des positions qui seront prises de la part de la
2
Commission qui forceront même le gouvernement à prendre
3
position sur ce qu'on a dit et ce qu'on a écrit et en
4
fonction de la volonté de la population métisse du Québec
5
et de la population métisse aussi au Canada.
6
Étant donné qu'on a encore besoin du
7
temps pour laisser parler d'autres personnes, je vais
8
laisser mon tour à d'autres personnes.
9
10
Thank you
very much.
11
Dale?
12
DALE GIBSON, University of Alberta:
13
Thank you.
14
particularly interested in the comments that several have
15
made about a formal recognition that section 91(24) include
16
Métis, which I totally agree with.
17
can make a strong argument that it already does,
18
nevertheless, it's good to confirm.
19
My business is constitutional law, so I am
Though I think you
I want to add something a little more
20
radical to that, though.
One of the difficulties with
21
91(24) if it's being looked to as a source of benefit or
22
assistance by those groups is that constitutional lawyers
23
generally don't agree that 91(24) conveys anything more
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than a power on the part of government.
2
probably convey legally an obligation, a responsibility,
3
and I think it would be useful to think about adding to
4
that recommendation concerning 91(24) a recognition that
5
91(24) isn't to be seen just as a power, but also as a
6
responsibility to bring about the equality of access that
7
we have been talking about.
8
9
It doesn't
Thank you
very much, Dale.
10
Rock?
11
ROCK MATTE:
First of all, I feel very
12
offended by the comment that was made that we basically
13
would be 20 years behind what's happening in the Prairies.
14
It is, I strongly believe, one of the impediments under
15
which we basically can't get our aspirations when we hear
16
comments like that.
17
of the Prairies and those kinds of things have no place
18
in here.
19
Business of the Prairies is business
Nor are we confused.
I feel very
20
strongly about that.
I didn't expect this kind of comment
21
and it brings fear in terms of having anything in terms
22
of this kind of -- we are not behind the Prairies, we shall
23
not be compared to the Prairies.
The Prairies have their
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own problems, we have our own problems, they have their
2
own development, we have our own development, and I want
3
to make a point of that.
It does kind of bring chills.
4
Basically, at this point in time, that
5
kind of comment has cut all my aspirations to basically
6
tell more about the impediments because if we are not at
7
the point where we can understand this kind of behaviour
8
taking place, there is no point in going further, as far
9
as I'm concerned.
10
11
12
13
14
Thank you very much; merci beaucoup;
meegwetch.
Very briefly,
Donavon and Richard.
DONAVON YOUNG:
I guess I need to
15
clarify my remarks.
I didn't mean to offend anyone.
16
was simply trying to make an observation that in terms
17
of -- and I was concentrating on stages of development,
18
the infrastructure in terms of self-governing
19
institutions, programs and services.
20
observation that it struck me that there were some sharp
21
distinctions in the various regions of the country so that
22
when you look at options and recommendations around
23
self-government, you need to take into account those
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I was making an
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differences.
2
So, what might make sense or what we
3
might be looking at in terms of policy options in, say,
4
Alberta or
5
make sense in, say, Labrador because you have different
6
conditions, you have different stages of developments.
7
Perhaps I didn't express myself clear enough, but that's
8
what I was trying to get at, that for me -- and the people
9
from Labrador seem to agree -- there are these differences.
Manitoba or Saskatchewan may not necessarily
10
11
So, I'm just trying to, one, get a handle
12
on the differences and, two, and more importantly from
13
a policy perspective, try to understand what can be done
14
because we have to look across the country.
15
say, I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone.
16
17
But, as I
Thank you,
Donavon.
18
Richard?
19
RICHARD LAFFERTY:
I would just like to
20
-- perhaps it's only a comment, but I will try and form
21
it in a question style.
22
constitutional lawyer from the University of Alberta's
23
comments.
I would like to respond to our
They seem inconsistent to me because, on one
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hand, he is suggesting that we don't need any further
2
amendment to say that we are included in 91(24), so it's
3
already understood.
4
a requirement that we insist that the fiduciary component
5
is a responsibility, not a privilege.
6
only cloud the issue again.
7
problem is constitutional lawyers.
8
9
Yet he is saying that perhaps it's
I think that would
So, perhaps part of our
If the government, which it is doing now,
is accepting the fact that there is a fiduciary
10
responsibility, why would anybody want to cloud the issue
11
in suggesting that we get a change to the Constitution
12
saying that it is a responsibility?
13
some reasoning behind that.
14
DALE GIBSON:
Maybe you could give
When I say I think there
15
is already -- there are two factors here.
16
I think that Métis are included in 91(24), though not
17
explicitly mentioned.
18
more difficult legal conclusion to arrive at, I think you
19
can make a strong argument that there is a responsibility
20
there.
21
One is that
The second is, though it's a much
One of the problems with the
22
responsibility, the fiduciary responsibility, is that all
23
the courts have recognized up to now is an obligation on
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the part of the Crown -- that is, the executive arm of
2
government -- but not a responsibility on the part of
3
Parliament, the legislative arm of government.
4
that, the conclusions that I am suggesting are conclusions
5
that I would draw if I were a judge of the Supreme Court
6
of Canada, but I'm not a judge of the Supreme Court of
7
Canada and probably never will be.
Not only
8
What I was suggesting was that if you
9
write into the text of the Constitution a clear statement
10
of what I now believe the law to be, you may avoid a future
11
constitutional decision that comes down contrary to what
12
I think the law is.
13
certainly not to befuddle.
14
15
18
I believe
Kirby has a real short comment.
16
17
So, my intent was to clarify and
KIRBY LETHBRIDGE:
Very short, very
short.
I wasn't offended by what Don said, but
19
that's neither here nor there how anybody else feels.
20
I would like to just put this out as, I think, a way of
21
explaining why it is that we end up in little things --
22
in which I don't mean to demean you at all, Rock, either
23
-- how we end up in little situations that can grow right
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out of proportion, can become things out of proportion.
2
In Labrador, we are,
3
infrastructure-wise, behind.
There is a very good reason
4
for that.
5
we were just Labradorians, with a relationship that was
6
our own and we didn't feel threatened at all.
7
organizing of the Inuit and the Naskapis-Montagnais
8
people, people perceived some sort of a threat.
9
tried to get involved in discussions with governments to
At one time we were all just people of Labrador,
With the
When we
10
get some basic funding so that we could develop our
11
infrastructure and properly inform our people and to
12
consult with our people, those dollars were not available
13
to us as they were to the other Aboriginal organizations.
14
15
So, that's one of the reasons that we
16
are behind.
17
I do feel that we have been behind the eight ball as we
18
relate to federal funding institutions, which have
19
provided for some contemporary political development in
20
Labrador.
21
I will go back to the small pie syndrome.
22
23
I don't consider it behind as a people, but
I think that a big part of our problem is --
I was involved in a meeting with the
executive of the Native Council of Canada and the Office
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of the Secretary of State, with Monique Landry, on two
2
separate occasions when we were discussing core funding
3
for two affiliated organizations of the Native Council
4
of Canada.
5
the Native Council of Saskatchewan and the Labrador Métis
6
Association.
Neither have ever received any core funding,
7
8
9
She said, "The pie is only this big."
She actually used these words.
She said, "The pie is
only this big, we can't make more out of it.
Unless the
10
rest of you give up some, there is none for these other
11
people."
12
are not going to cut off any of our pie and give it to
13
somebody else.
14
organizations were adamant about that.
15
access comes up again.
Of course, the nature of the beast is that we
We are strapped as it is.
Other
So, equity of
16
That's my short comment.
17
Thank you
Rock, you have a comment.
I would like
18
very much.
19
20
to leave some time for the Commissioners.
21
questions.
22
They have some
So, I will ask you to be very brief.
ROCK MATTE:
I will be short and sweet.
23
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Basically, I maintain my position and
2
I find it hard to accept the apologies because the words
3
were said into a concept, which I believe is an evolutionary
4
concept under which we have to fit into a box, a box under
5
which we are going to have to take programs designed by
6
someone which will basically build it, which will not fully
7
reflect who we are as people.
8
9
When you have the number situation,
ratio situation of Aboriginal/non-Aboriginal such as we
10
have in the Prairies, it might be good for them.
11
us, in some situations, it is going to turn out that we
12
are going to lose our identity as people.
13
But for
I think it's a great impediment to let
14
us be who we are as people and to be able to evolve as
15
a different people with our own house, not someone else's
16
house or built by somebody else.
17
have long gone.
18
to build a house ourselves and we need support, not
19
overbearing fraternalistic attitudes.
20
gone.
21
partnership and if we are true to our words, let's be true
22
partners.
23
The Darwinism theories
If we ought to build a house, we ought
We can't fit in that.
That has long
If we ought to build a
We are entitled as people to do our own
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mistakes and that's what we intend to do, to learn from
2
our own mistakes.
3
in control of our destiny and we will learn from our
4
mistakes.
5
gone for that.
We will make mistakes, but we will be
We won't be children no more.
The time is long
6
I want to say thank you.
7
8
very much.
9
10
Thank you
I will invite the Commissioners, if they
have some questions.
11
I have some
12
very small ones that could be answered pretty quickly.
13
I can look at the census information, I guess, as to how
14
many people there are that call themselves Métis in the
15
different provinces, but I wouldn't mind knowing in Quebec
16
how many people regard themselves as Métis, if you haven't
17
done the census, your own enumeration, which I don't expect
18
you have at this point yet.
19
how many people you think there are that are Métis in
20
Quebec?
21
22
23
Could you have a guess of
RÉJAN PILOTE:
Même si c'est une
question simple, la réponse n'est sûrement pas simple.
Nous, on croit que pour la nation métisse
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au Québec... certains disent qu'il y en a un million;
2
d'autres disent que dans les recensements, si on parle
3
seulement de ceux qui sont déclarés comme Métis, il y en
4
a environ 8 000 en 1986, ceux qui ont répondu "mixed blood",
5
il y en a un petit peu plus, et si on rajoute les sept
6
ou huit catégories d'autochtones, je ne sais pas exactement
7
quel nombre on a.
8
9
Par contre, nous, on sait très bien qu'on
peut faire le dénombrement ou l'énumération des Métis,
10
ou on peut faire partie d'une association autochtone
11
quelconque, mais quand il s'agit d'être citoyen d'une
12
nation, quand tu signes un papier où, en signant ce papier
13
tu n'est plus Québécois ou tu n'es plus Canadien, tu est
14
Métis, tu es citoyen métis, et partout où tu vas avoir
15
ton numéro d'assurance sociale ou partout où tu vas
16
présenter une carte d'identité, ce sera une carte
17
d'identité métisse... nous, on croit que si dans quelques
18
années, et même dans plusieurs années, on est 2 000 ou
19
entre 2 000 et 5 000, je pense qu'on va avoir gagné le
20
gros lot.
21
En plus, nous, on dit que le nombre
22
importe peu.
Vous savez, au Québec, il y a des bandes
23
qui sont 60, il y a des réserves où il y a 60 résidents,
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et il y a des nations où ils sont environ 200.
2
que le nombre importe?
3
on est 200, je suis bien content; si on est 300, 400, 500
4
ou 1 000 ou 2 000, je suis bien content.
5
Alors est-ce
La nation métisse au Québec, si
Pour nous, le nombre importe peu.
Ce
6
qui nous importe, nous, c'est la qualité des citoyens.
7
C'est une des raisons pourquoi on ne veut pas aller trop
8
vite, c'est une des raisons pourquoi on ne veut pas baser
9
notre nation sur des corporations de services, parce que
10
dans ce temps-là, quand il y a des avantages trop
11
facilement, on a des gens qui sont plus ou moins convaincus
12
de ce qu'ils sont.
13
convaincus, et le résultat importe plus que le nombre.
Nous, ce qu'on veut, c'est des citoyens
14
Je ne sais pas si j'ai bien répondu à
15
votre question, mais en ce moment, nous sommes en train
16
de faire un dénombrement provisoire, et tout encore est
17
fait sur une base bénévole.
18
commencé à envoyer leur formulaire, il y en a plusieurs
19
qui le remplissent sur place, il y en a plusieurs qui en
20
prennent pour faire remplir à leur famille proche.
21
on n'en a pas fait le décompte encore.
22
va commencer à faire le décompte, on va informer le
23
gouvernement.
Il y en a plusieurs qui ont
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Ce qu'il est important de dire aussi,
2
c'est que nous aurons toujours des listes ouvertes... quand
3
nous aurons notre registre des citoyens de la nation
4
métisse, ce sera un registre ouvert, et quand nous
5
négocierons ce sera sur la base de ce registre-là et non
6
pas sur des chiffres hypothétiques d'un recensement
7
quelconque.
8
mais une question de liste de citoyens, de registre de
9
citoyens.
Ce ne sera pas une question de recensement,
Ce sera sur cette base-là.
Quand nous
10
parlerons de la nation métisse et quand nous parlerons
11
au nom de la population métisse, ce sera au nom de ce
12
registre-là des gens qui sont inscrits à notre liste de
13
la nation.
14
Thank you.
15
Earlier you were talking about where we
16
could find the Métis and I guess some of them are in mixed
17
communities.
18
actually find predominantly Métis or are there actually
19
Métis communities in Quebec?
20
ANDY FROST:
Are there communities where we could
In the communities of Fort
21
Coulonge-Mansfield, it's two municipalities that are
22
closely linked together.
23
approximately 1,000 people and I believe there is about
In Fort Coulonge, there is
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2
3
550 to 575 Métis people registered with the organization.
In Mansfield I don't know the population of the
municipality, but it would be about 1,500.
4
There is about 650 to 700 Métis people
5
in those communities, but they live in harmony with
6
everybody else because everybody knows who we are up there.
7
It's a community feeling.
It's not a segregation amongst
8
ourselves because there is no animosities because we live
9
together.
Sometimes animosities do arise, but it's when
10
it's -- how could I say -- imposed or because of a system
11
that's in place where the Métis people can't voice their
12
own opinions.
13
because we are not smart enough to do our own work.
14
stuff like that that creates animosity with outside people.
Outside people come in and take our jobs
It's
15
I hope that answers your question.
16
17
In Labrador, obviously, you haven't done
Certainly.
18
any kind of census yet, but if you were to try and get
19
some kind of a guess as to how many people will eventually
20
declare themselves as Métis, do you have a rough idea?
21
BERNIE HEARD:
You are quite right, we
22
haven't done any count, an enumeration of any kind.
23
best guess would be somewhere in the range between 3,000
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and 4,000, maximum, and they are scattered from Happy
2
Valley-Goose Bay in the north right down to Anticlerc (ph)
3
on the Quebec border in the south.
4
5
Thank you.
Those are my questions.
6
7
COMMISSIONER VIOLA ROBINSON:
8
you.
Viola?
Thank
I have a question.
9
I guess when I hear you talking about
10
self-government and how a vehicle is going to be provided
11
to you in order to achieve self-government, from listening
12
yesterday and today, it seems that at least some of you
13
felt that the Charlottetown Accord would have provided
14
that vehicle for you.
15
we met with Métis National Council, they talked about the
16
Métis Nation Accord and we have been asked to promote and
17
to support that Métis Nation Accord.
At the Charlottetown Accord, when
18
I would like to know for my own purposes
19
here, would the Métis Nation Accord assist you or would
20
that be the vehicle or would it be something similar to
21
that or could there be an accord, a national accord, an
22
accord of some type that could be accessed or used by Métis
23
people in the east, as well as those in the west?
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Anybody can answer that, but I think it
2
has to be somebody from maybe Labrador.
3
this is because of the recognition that has been pointed
4
out to us here, particularly in Labrador, saying -- and
5
I know that they are not recognized as an Aboriginal
6
constituency of Labrador.
7
would have been approved, if it had have passed, would
8
that have given you, as Métis people in Labrador, a vehicle,
9
in a way, to access self-government?
10
The reason I say
If that Charlottetown Accord
KIRBY LETHBRIDGE:
I think totally to
11
the contrary.
12
the Constitutional task Force with the Native Council of
13
Canada at the time, and it was made very clear to me through
14
discussions that I had with Justice people and many legal
15
people from across this country that we certainly had a
16
lot to fear from the implementation of a Métis Nation
17
Accord, as it was agreed upon at the end of the
18
Charlottetown process.
19
I was part of the political task force,
The non-derogation clauses in there were
20
not sufficient.
They were perceived by a constitutional
21
lawyer who happens to be the premier of the province of
22
Newfoundland, they were perceived to be driving the nail
23
in our coffin.
That's exactly how we perceived it, that's
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how we will see it.
2
Mr. Clark made it very clear.
I was
3
pushing this issue right up to the last day, until the
4
25th of October, and we finally received a letter from
5
Mr. Clark to Ron George, I think, on the day of the
6
referendum.
I think it was the 26th of October.
7
That day we received a letter from Joe
8
Clark and he sort of like beat around the bush on it, you
9
know.
He didn't come really clear on his position.
He
10
was saying that other Métis people who are not a part of
11
the Accord would be able to negotiate some form of
12
self-government institutions separate from this.
13
certainly indicated to me that we were not going to be
14
in any way benefiting from such an accord.
15
certainly didn't seem to think so.
16
17
18
19
So, it
Mr. Wells
Thank you
very much.
That was a real loaded question.
I have
three other people who want to respond.
20
Réjan?
21
RÉJAN PILOTE:
Je suis exactement du
22
même avis que Kirby au sujet de l'Accord de Charlottetown;
23
peut-être que c'était bon pour les Métis de l'ouest, mais,
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à l'est de la Rivière Rouge, il n'y avait rien de bon pour
2
nous.
3
ne nous a pas du tout rassurés.
Et la tentative de M. Joe Clark de nous rassurer
4
Une chose est sûre, et c'est que la
5
reconnaissance comme Métis, à mon avis, je suis très
6
content que ce soit dans l'article 35 et qu'on dise qu'on
7
est inclus dans le 91(24), mais, quant à moi, ma
8
reconnaissance ou mon droit n'est pas rattaché à ça, il
9
est rattaché à notre droit inhérent, à nos droits
10
ancestraux.
Donc, pour moi, toute la question qui tourne
11
alentour de l'article 35 et 91(24), c'est seulement pour
12
légitimer les actions du gouvernement, parce que si on
13
n'est pas là, tout l'argent qui a été dépensé pour les
14
Métis, c'est tout de l'argent illégal.
15
gouvernement veut seulement légitimer ses actions envers
16
nous, il doit tout simplement prendre les actions qu'il
17
veut, et je crois que c'est dans son intérêt de le faire.
18
Maintenant, nous, on n'attend pas après
Donc si le
19
ça pour établir notre gouvernement ou établir ce qu'on
20
veut.
21
ses responsabilités fiduciaires envers nous, qu'il nous
22
donne les moyens et qu'il rétablisse une certaine équité,
23
et on va faire notre job.
On veut seulement que le gouvernement remplisse
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2
Thank you
very much.
3
Henry?
4
HENRY WETELAINEN:
I, too, think that
5
the Accord failed in the sense that it was voted down by
6
the very people that it proposed to
represent in Ontario.
7
The vote "no" was high in our communities and a lot of
8
our leaders did go against it, even though the leader of
9
this organization at that time was out in the communities
10
trying to sell it.
11
down there.
12
It did not happen and it was voted
Therefore, I could not, today as a
13
politician from Ontario, support it.
14
up too much and one of the clauses that I really have trouble
15
with is that basically they have given up the right or
16
the protection from taxation or the right to discuss
17
revenue-sharing.
18
that was flawed because if you are talking about an
19
independent nation and you are talking about
20
self-government, you have to be able to negotiate the
21
fiscal arrangements to make it work.
22
you start from that basis that you are dealing as equals.
23
I think they give
To me it was a key clause in the Accord
You already give up too much.
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The other thing is that it has come to
2
our view that the Ontario government supported this knowing
3
full well that their plan was to create another class of
4
Métis in the province.
5
a first class Métis that would sign this accord, they would
6
have another second class Métis which they would sort of
7
call something else again, and these are things that we
8
had learned after that, that these were actually parts
9
of the negotiations within the province of Ontario's
10
They figured that they would have
negotiating team.
11
Thank you.
12
13
Thank you
very much.
14
Frank?
15
FRANK PALMATER:
I'm not sure, but I get
16
the perception that a couple of people got the question
17
wrong.
18
were asking is:
19
applicable to all Métis in Canada?
20
in that Accord it had a definition who was the Métis.
21
Was I against that Accord, yes.
22
Charlottetown Accord, yes, because it guaranteed equity
23
of access and if I didn't get it, I could take the bastards
I think -- I'm not 100 per cent sure -- what you
Was the MNC, the Métis Nation Accord,
No, it was not because
Was I for the
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to court.
2
good.
I liked that, I really liked that.
3
That was
We spent $97,000 taking the province of
4
New Brunswick to court.
We won.
I'm not afraid of the
5
court system.
6
get it, our brothers and sisters on reserve, the government
7
powers that be, those who have the dollars and distribute
8
them, if we didn't get it, we could have taken them to
9
court.
Now we hunt and we fish.
So, if we didn't
That would have helped us a lot.
10
So, I was in favour of the Charlottetown
11
Accord, but I was dead set against, and I still am, the
12
Métis Nation Accord's definition of who a Métis is.
13
Everything else that applied to them, it was hunky-dory,
14
tickety-boo.
15
there, I don't care.
16
I didn't live there, I'm not going to move
It was up to them.
But their definition as to who a Métis
17
was, that really struck home with me because they were
18
exclusionary.
19
River Valley and those who were fringe groups around the
20
area.
21
I still am, to that definition of who a Métis is.
I won't
22
allow anybody to tell me who I am or who I am not.
That's
23
my choice.
They said it was only those from the Red
I was vehemently opposed to it at that time, and
Ain't nobody can take that from me.
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But the Charlottetown Accord, when I
2
mentioned it a while ago, it would have given
us an
3
opportunity to participate because it had an equity of
4
access clause in it and there are enough non-derogation
5
clauses in it so that it wouldn't have taken away from
6
our responsibilities.
7
country who doesn't believe that taxation is going to be
8
a necessary evil of our people, man, they are walking down
9
a road that has a dead end, a big one right at the end.
Any Aboriginal leader in this
10
11
If you don't tax your people or you don't
12
put some system in there to generate revenue from some
13
of the things that you have control over, how do you keep
14
getting it?
15
golden egg forever.
16
that part of the goose that lays the egg is getting sore
17
and there are no more eggs coming.
18
eventually some day.
The government is not a goose that lays the
Somebody once told me one time that
It's going to happen
19
Self-government will become a reality.
20
What form of self-government that is, it's going to take
21
a whole bunch of people and a whole bunch of time.
22
is one process, but a guaranteed equity of access in any
23
form that we have must be there and I believe the
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Charlottetown Accord went a long way to achieve that.
2
Thank you
3
very much.
I will take two very short responses to Viola's
4
question because there are other Commissioners who have
5
other questions.
Very short, please.
6
Rock?
7
ROCK MATTE:
I think part of the
8
question that maybe we are overlooking, as I understood
9
-- maybe I misunderstood -- is the possibility of a
10
pan-national Métis accord.
I, frankly, do believe that
11
is -- I think it was part of the question, which we haven't
12
touched yet and I honestly, frankly, believe that it's
13
possible that we have a pan-national Métis accord and maybe
14
the Royal Commission could be instrumental in helping to
15
facilitate another Métis meeting which will regroup the
16
women that came and were offended by the lack of sensibility
17
in terms of being able to participate, maybe our brothers
18
from the Red River, and we would be willing to come again
19
maybe to discuss and see if, yes, it can be possible.
20
I think, frankly, we could make a step
21
in the direction to maybe meeting some more on that specific
22
question.
23
wrong and it won't be possible, but at least it's worth
After those two days maybe I will be proven
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the try.
That's the first part of the question, a
2
pan-national Métis accord has to be looked into.
3
the question can be objective for the meeting.
4
Maybe
Second, the Charlottetown Accord, to my
5
understanding, was kind of a nightmare on many levels.
6
We saw on national TV that the protocol was broken after
7
Mr. Bourassa was invited.
8
individual on the sidewalk waiting to be invited for
9
supper.
There was an unfortunate
Those things are important.
Many of our elders
10
were watching TV and they knew at that point in time that
11
this was a fundamental flaw within the protocol of the
12
Accord.
13
into the community and try to sell it.
So, they didn't need anybody's rhetoric to go
14
At that time, I think the Accord was
15
re-opened.
16
for further negotiation.
17
many of the First Nations and Métis organizations with
18
regard to what the actual Accord on the technical level
19
was containing for us as a distinct people.
20
me, reneging 400 years, if not more, of a constant point
21
of recognition as distinct people.
22
against 400 years of my grandfathers singing the same song.
23
Everything that was agreed on was re-opened
I registered my dissidence with
It was morally unacceptable.
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So, I couldn't go
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Royal Commission on
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1
The Métis Accord, as it stands now, is
2
unacceptable because any modification to that actual
3
accord would be an add-on, which is going to be far from
4
sufficient to what I see as a partnership developing
5
between our brothers from the Prairies and ourselves and
6
any partnership.
7
forgotten item, on the agenda.
We don't want to be an add-on, a
8
Thank you.
9
10
ANDY FROST:
Andy?
On the Charlottetown
11
Accord, I would just like to say that when the Charlottetown
12
Accord was coming out of the process at the community level,
13
when we finally got a copy of it, it was already dead in
14
the water.
So, maybe an Accord would be good in the future.
15
16
If there is an Accord that is struck up,
17
it would be very important to go back to the people, from
18
the grassroots right down into the communities, and get
19
their advice also because sometimes we elect politicians
20
and sometimes they take decisions on themselves to put
21
things in accords which don't quite sit right with the
22
communities.
23
until it's either passed or until it's dead in the water,
Oftentimes we don't see the documentation
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like this Accord was.
2
What I'm suggesting is if there ever is
3
another accord or something along those lines, also to
4
everybody here, try to get back to your people right down
5
at your local communities and get your people involved
6
because they are the ones that we are supposed to be
7
representing.
8
Thank you.
9
10
very much.
11
12
I believe some of the other
Commissioners have questions.
13
Mary?
14
15
Thank you
Thank you
very much, K.C.
16
Just a comment on the Métis Nation
17
Accord.
When we were in Saskatoon, we had simultaneous
18
workshops, maybe four or five, going on at the same time
19
and in the workshop that Mr. Dussault and I were on, it
20
was very, very clear that many of the members of the Métis
21
Nation supported the Métis Nation Accord for their members
22
and they felt that that was something that they had
23
developed after a long period of consultation with their
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members, it was acceptable to many of them, and that there
2
was a feeling that there should, however, be another
3
process for the
4
within the Métis Nation.
Métis people who were not represented
5
Having said that, one of the questions
6
that I still have after two or three days is, how do you
7
develop a definition of "Métis" which is inclusionary --
8
a lot of people have used that term very much over the
9
past two days -- but which is acceptable to both groups.
10
11
I guess the reality that I am seeing is
12
that there are members of the Métis Nation and there is
13
also Métis that are outside the Métis Nation and, clearly,
14
both groups have different issues.
15
I have always wondered in my own mind, at the end of the
16
day what do we do.
17
separately for each group?
18
For the Commission,
Do we develop recommendations
It struck me, too, that there are
19
differences in definitions between Métis for the MNC and
20
what I heard through this forum.
21
that the most liberal definition of "Métis" could be anyone
22
with mixed blood.
23
I guess I felt yesterday
I think the MNC is more restricted.
Clearly, the definition was very, very
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large and I'm just wondering, does anyone have anything
2
to say about that?
3
Commission should deal with, is it an issue that the
4
leadership should deal with, have the Métis leaders gotten
5
into a room and discussed this issue, what have the
6
conclusions been, is this something which is none of our
7
business or what?
8
9
For example, is it an issue that the
Way to go,
Mary, we have seven names already.
10
I think what I would like to do is I will
11
take a coffee break right now.
You know what the question
12
is.
13
break right now and then the time that we had wanted to
14
set aside at the end for the general discussion, we are
15
doing that now.
I have a list of eight people.
We will take a coffee
16
ROY CARDINAL:
17
18
Point of order.
order?
19
ROY CARDINAL:
20
21
Yes.
I'm not
officially a chair, but ---
22
23
Point of
ROY CARDINAL:
You look like one,
anyway.
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2
Go ahead,
Roy.
3
ROY CARDINAL:
Thank you very much.
I
4
will be going in 10 minutes, so I will make my statement
5
in two minutes.
6
I had to respect all the other people, so I have my
7
opportunity at this coffee break moment.
Actually, I had wanted to speak up, but
8
I would like to make a recommendation
9
to the Royal Commission on the Aboriginal People to get
10
the governments to begin immediately to have federally
11
and provincially-appropriate application forms for the
12
Métis people as part of their fiduciary responsibility.
13
Then we would all have our identification and then the
14
government would know who is who in Canada.
15
first people or the third world people?
16
That's all, thank you.
17
Are we the
Just before
18
we take a coffee break, I have an announcement to make.
19
For those of you who have not picked up your expense claim,
20
please do so next door at the RCAP office because we are
21
closing it.
22
Greg?
23
GREG SCHOFIELD:
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Royal Commission on
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1
I, too, am going to be leaving in about 10 minutes back
2
to Vancouver.
I just wanted to thank the Commission for
3
inviting me out.
4
Louis Riel Métis Council.
5
every one of my fellow delegates have had to say and I
6
have learned an incredible amount.
I will have a lot to take back to the
I have enjoyed what each and
7
So, with that, thank you.
8
9
Safe travels,
gentlemen.
10
For the rest of you, we will be
11
reconvening at seven minutes after.
12
--- Short recess at 3:55 p.m.
13
--- Upon resuming at 4:10 p.m.
14
I have a long
15
list before me of people who want to respond to Commissioner
16
Sillett's question.
17
If we can proceed, I have the first name
18
on the list to respond to Mary's question as Rock.
19
ahead.
20
ROCK MATTE:
Go
As to the question, I guess
21
one of the most important players that could confirm the
22
first point that I would like to make is my brother, Clem,
23
who can confirm that within the Métis group of brothers
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of the Red River, their definition is causing problems
2
within the communities as perhaps a lot of their
3
constituency.
4
big problem with the definition of the Métis Nation being
5
restricted to the Red River.
A lot of their community have a very, very
6
I guess Clem can confirm that, as being
7
one of the players, as has been my understanding during
8
my journeys in the Prairies, which I go on a regular basis.
9
So, communities are not at all happy with that restrictive
10
definition.
Mind you, it's kind of hurting us in the east
11
when we know that the flag comes from us, as well as the
12
sash.
13
appropriated, is kind of a blatant disrespect towards us.
Not being recognized and having our symbol
14
15
I believe that in the near future, once
16
we discuss the issue, there will be clarification in terms
17
of that so that the leaders of the Métis National Council
18
will be able to bring these words of wisdom to their
19
constituency so that they will understand where they come
20
from.
21
The definition should be and can be, I
22
guess, worked out with further consultation amongst all
23
Métis people from coast-to-coast, which will involve wide
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consultation at the community level, and if we are true
2
to our word to be community-oriented, it shall be community
3
consultation taking place.
4
I believe that should maybe answer some
5
of your questions.
If I forgot part of your question,
6
you can always ask it again because it has been 15 minutes.
7
I would ask Clem to confirm the fact that there is still
8
some debate amongst the definition within the Prairies
9
if the Métis should be restricted to the Red River and
10
11
their descendants.
Meegwetch.
CLEM CHARTIER, Métis Policy Team, Royal
12
Commission on Aboriginal Peoples:
Thank you.
I was
13
hoping to get another opportunity to say something just
14
to make it clear for the record that I'm not here as a
15
participant from any Métis community.
16
guess, part of the Métis policy team of the Royal
17
Commission, who is working on Métis self-government and
18
is here to listen.
19
yesterday to make some comments on this issue of 91(24),
20
which I did, and I think that's good.
I am here as, I
I was invited by the Moderator
21
I have to agree with Rock that the issue
22
of who are the Métis, the Métis criteria, is still being
23
debated and I think it will be debated for as long as there
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are any of us identifying as part of the Métis Nation,
2
as the Métis Nation.
3
also say that I am one of the ones that leads the debate
4
in terms of the wrong spin that's been put on the criteria
5
of the Métis Nation by the Royal Commission, as well as
6
everybody, because they keep saying the Red River Métis.
That will never disappear.
I can
7
8
9
10
I, for one, have always stated that
that's not who we are saying we are, the Red River Métis.
We are saying the Métis of western Canada.
I come from
11
northwestern Saskatchewan, I'm not part of the Red River,
12
and I don't subscribe to the label of the Red River.
13
think that's something that hasn't been, I guess, picked
14
up fully by the Royal Commission because they hear
15
everybody else coming and saying, "The Red River, the Red
16
River this, the MNCs, the Red River that", so they are
17
adopting that, I guess, by having heard it so often.
I
18
I don't think there is any violation to
19
my saying that in western Canada -- I have already said
20
it yesterday -- we identify ourselves as the Métis Nation
21
and I suppose I take exception to what you have stated
22
in that we have stolen your flag.
23
new to me.
That's something totally
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In fact I was very insulted yesterday
2
and, out of respect, didn't want to mention this, but we
3
feel very insulted and I feel that even the Royal Commission
4
is attacking our dignity as the Métis Nation in flying
5
our flag with an addition sewn onto it.
6
a violation of our people and our nation.
I think that's
7
But, in any event, yes, there is still
8
discussion, but certainly -- and I'm not a leader in the
9
Métis Nation and I say I am here in a different capacity,
10
but Mary made it, I think, clear that the statements in
11
Saskatchewan our people are saying and have made clear
12
is that we are looking towards what we see as our rights
13
as a people, as a collective.
14
You have already said yourself in the
15
Prairies they can do what they want and that's a crude
16
way of saying, you know, us out there, and that's fine.
17
We are doing what we want and on the same basis, like
18
you are saying, you don't want to be boxed in by what we
19
do.
20
to be dictated by your concepts of who you are and I think,
21
as I said yesterday, you should be free to develop as to
22
who you think you are and that's fine.
23
I guess that's fine.
On the same hand, we don't want
I think the Commission has to take that
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into consideration, that people will identify as to who
2
they are.
3
nation, can tell somebody else who they are or who they
4
aren't.
5
and I guess that's what's going to happen.
No commission, no government, no people, no
People have to be free to grow in and identify
6
We are not overly rigid, I don't think,
7
on the Prairies or in our organizations because you came
8
there and I think you are still a member of our organization
9
at least.
So, we can't be that bad.
10
11
Thank you
very much, Clem.
12
Martin, short and sweet, please.
13
MARTIN DUNN:
14
one specific point that I really want to address.
15
point out that in the background paper there is a critique
16
of the Métis Nation Accord that was done at the time the
17
Métis Accord was first presented at the table in the
18
Charlottetown process and it's there for your information.
19
Actually, there is only
I will
I don't intend to go through that.
20
But the one element I do want to address
21
and the element that generated the paranoia or the fear
22
and concern that many of us felt about the definitional
23
section of the Métis Nation Accord was the fact that at
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the table, at the Charlottetown table, the NCC delegation
2
-- I was instructed by the NCC to present the NCC position
3
in the context of almost complete agreement with the Métis
4
Nation Accord.
We do not oppose the Accord as a whole.
5
6
We do not oppose the idea that the Métis
7
peoples of the west should conduct themselves in any kind
8
of agreement they please, except that that agreement have
9
the possibility of being seen of excluding others.
In
10
order to address that issue, the NCC proposed a
11
non-derogation clause, a simple non-derogation clause that
12
would have said:
13
Aboriginal peoples, including other Métis", and that was
14
specifically refused.
15
This Accord does not affect other
So, what was a concern then became
16
full-blown paranoia because on what grounds would that
17
be refused, except if there was an intent to exclude other
18
Métis people or create the appearance that there is only
19
one Métis nation, the membership of that Métis nation will
20
be defined by that Métis nation and there will be no other
21
Métis nation.
22
23
That's what we were trying to prevent.
Had there been the possibility of a
mutually-agreeable non-derogation clause, we would not
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have opposed the Métis Nation Accord at all and will not
2
oppose it again if it becomes clear at some point that
3
the parameters of that Accord apply specifically to one
4
group of Métis and that same Accord admits there are other
5
groups who may make and have different arrangements.
6
That's all.
7
8
9
10
Thank you
very much for your concise response.
Richard?
RICHARD LAFFERTY:
Thank you.
I think
11
in answering this question specifically, the only way to
12
really allow an open-ended definition of "Métis" that could
13
be used across the country is to have the two of the three
14
elements that were used to get the Métis into the
15
Constitution in the first place because at this point
16
community acceptance, I don't think, is an appropriate
17
element to have in the criteria.
18
We are experiencing in the Northwest
19
Territories a lot of animosity from people who identify
20
as Métis, but have Bill C-31 status.
21
cannot get Bill C-31 status, such as myself.
22
I don't feel this way, there is a lot of animosity towards
23
people who have Bill C-31 status and consider themselves
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Royal Commission on
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1
Métis because they have a choice as to whether or not to
2
apply for Bill C-31 status.
3
they are on a band list and receive benefits and that sort
4
of thing from bands.
5
Once they have applied, then
But our Métis nation does not exclude
6
them from our general register and there are many, many
7
people in the Northwest Territories with Bill C-31 status
8
who are Métis.
9
Association with the Congress of Aboriginal People because
10
we do represent not only Métis, but Bill C-31 people, and
11
that is a big contentious issue with our association with
12
the Métis National Council.
That is, I think, the basis of our
13
It comes up quite often that we accept
14
Bill C-31 people and we have such an open, broad policy
15
that I believe we were defending a mixed blood individual
16
who considers himself Métis from the Bay of Quinte in the
17
Northwest Territories.
18
rights up there.
19
We were defending his hunting
So, I don't believe that community
20
acceptance should be a criteria for being enumerated as
21
a Métis.
22
that you are of Aboriginal descent, then I think it should
23
be sufficient to be enumerated as a Métis person.
If you identify as a Métis and you can prove
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I know there are all types of problems.
2
You will notice that the Métis nation of the Northwest
3
Territories has their own flag.
4
fought over flags.
5
problems with flags.
6
to be worked out.
7
an educational process.
8
where that flag came from, what the significance of the
9
star is.
10
There have been wars
Quebec and Ottawa know well the
I think that's something that has
History has to be shown and again it's
A lot of people don't even know
Perhaps some wouldn't be offended if they
understood the significance of a star on a flag.
11
I just leave you with that.
12
13
Thanks.
Thank you,
Richard.
14
Réjan?
15
RÉJAN PILOTE:
Moi, je ne veux pas
16
revenir sur les questions de drapeaux et tout le kit.
17
Je suis d'accord que quand on va commencer à se parler
18
vraiment à travers tout le Canada, on va arrêter de se
19
trouver des différences mais on va plutôt se trouver
20
beaucoup de ressemblances.
21
Au sujet de la définition des Métis, je
22
conviens aussi avec M. Lafferty qu'on ne doit pas apporter
23
de critères trop restrictifs, parce qu'on ne veut pas,
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nous, au Québec, recommencer toutes les histoires... on
2
ne veut pas participer à l'ethnocide des peuples
3
autochtones du Canada et de l'Amérique du Nord.
4
le veut surtout pas.
5
On ne
Donc, moi, ce que j'aime depuis quelque
6
temps, c'est qu'on a l'occasion de parler avec des
7
organisations métisses et des Métis de partout au Canada.
8
Ça fait maintenant un an qu'à diverses occasions on en
9
rencontre.
J'ai été très surpris de voir jusqu'à quel
10
point on avait le même discours, jusqu'à quel point on
11
avait la même vision de l'avenir et tout ça.
12
Je pense que ce qu'il faut faire, c'est
13
de bâtir une entité nationale; quand je parle de nationale,
14
c'est que, oui, au Québec, on bâtit une entité nationale,
15
mais on doit aussi bâtir une entité qui couvre tout le
16
territoire du Canada.
17
dépendamment de la région où on demeure et on n'a pas tous
18
la même dynamique, mais je pense qu'on peut essayer de
19
travailler ensemble dans l'intérêt de tous, et je pense
20
qu'on va réussir à se parler.
Et, oui, on a des différences
21
Je peux vous dire, en tout cas, que moi,
22
je suis très content d'avoir participé à ce cercle métis
23
et j'en retire beaucoup de positif, et ce que je vois pour
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l'avenir, eh bien, c'est un petit peu plus clair pour moi.
2
Je vais vous laisser là-dessus.
3
4
Kirby?
5
KIRBY LETHBRIDGE:
Merci.
Thank you.
I agree with Réjan.
6
I would like to bring you back to a working group meeting
7
that took place in the Conference Centre here in Ottawa
8
just prior to the referendum on the Accord, the
9
Charlottetown Accord, where representatives of the Native
10
Council of Canada were there -- I was one of them -- and
11
there were representatives of the provinces, the federal
12
government and the Métis National Council.
13
the weakness of the non-derogation language in the Métis
14
Nation Accord.
The issue was
15
I think it's very clear to us now, much
16
clearer today, that it appears to have been a governing
17
mechanism to restrict access to section 35,
18
Métis/Aboriginal rights.
19
clear by a representative of the Métis National Council
20
that they were not going to accommodate us in any way.
21
At that meeting it was made very
In actual fact, a man who was
22
representing the MNC there stood up and slammed his
23
briefcase and stormed out of the meeting.
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Royal Commission on
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1
say that Clem was not that man, but he was there at the
2
table and is aware of what took place there.
3
over non-derogation and, as Marty said, it quickly
4
escalated to a sense of paranoia.
5
It was all
The Manitoba representative at the table
6
that night made it very clear as well that it was his
7
understanding that this was closing the door on everyone
8
else.
9
we called it the incredible shrinking plan, damage control,
10
There were only Métis in western Canada.
So then
and I still see it that way.
11
If the non-derogation language changed
12
or not, I think that I would still be very, very sceptical
13
about what we are going to see at the end of it.
14
going to see a status and non-status Métis in Canada, are
15
we going to see a Métis nation reserve type scenario?
16
Are we
So, I have problems with the federal
17
government accommodating a particular representative
18
organization of Métis peoples in such a fashion again.
19
You can change the non-derogation all you want.
20
adamantly oppose, as we were opposed, a Métis Nation Accord
21
which is restricted to the geographic reference on a map
22
and some Euro-ethnicity as opposed to Aboriginal
23
descendancy.
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I made it very clear in that meeting that
2
we were very pleased to see that somebody could work out
3
such a deal because it had some very positive potential
4
for the constituents of the Métis National Council.
5
said then and I will say now that the intention there was
6
to do damage control, the intention there was to restrict
7
access to section 35 reference to Métis and the rights
8
that are subsequent to that recognition.
9
Thank you.
10
11
Thank you
very much.
12
13
I
One more quick response from Monique and
I have some more questions.
14
MONIQUE McKAY:
I think it's also
15
important to put the whole discussion of definition into
16
context.
17
about the definition in relation to the establishment of
18
service delivery agencies for Métis people and when you
19
are talking about different kinds of rights that different
20
Métis groups might have.
I think it makes a big difference when you talk
21
For example, it doesn't make sense, I
22
think, to anybody that you would be talking about Labrador
23
Métis having rights to land in northern Saskatchewan, but
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it may make sense to people that a broader definition of
2
"Métis" would be acceptable when you are talking about
3
Métis people controlling institutions to deliver health
4
care or education or whatever.
5
a broad debate and say one definition will satisfy all
6
purposes.
7
and what you are trying to get at.
It really depends what you are talking about
8
9
So, you can't just have
Thank you
very much.
10
Peter?
11
COMMISSIONER PETER MEEKISON:
I do have
12
a question which concerns the concept of recognition.
13
I think part or most of the discussion on recognition has
14
focused on 91(24) and I don't really want to address that
15
particular question.
16
I think that has been discussed.
My thinking on recognition goes beyond
17
91(24).
18
two days, I think one can make an argument that the issue
19
of recognition runs like a fine red thread through much
20
of the discussion.
21
has taken some time in British Columbia, but now there
22
is a Métis Day, I believe in November, he said.
23
In listening to the comments throughout the last
For example, Greg mentioned that it
In listening to what the representatives
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from Newfoundland have said -- okay, Labrador -- clearly
2
there is an issue here of recognition.
3
you made it quite clear that Mr. Wells does not -- maybe
4
just him -- and you are not sure why.
I think, Bernie,
5
In Quebec, as I listened to the comments,
6
particularly yesterday, to the concerns, at least I sensed
7
there is an issue of how does one get the Quebec government
8
to recognize the Métis presence within the province, how
9
do the Métis within Quebec get the First Nations within
10
Quebec to give recognition to their existence.
11
I go back to what Martin said earlier
12
this afternoon on the management of conflict and the
13
examples he gave that Métis don't exist.
14
of solving the problem or to narrow the definition.
15
That's one way
Mr. Cardinal, before he left, talked
16
about federal and provincial governments together getting
17
identity cards so people can identify, that provinces are
18
involved.
19
land within Ontario and again that made me think that the
20
provinces at some point are going to be involved in
21
discussions, whether it be self-government or what have
22
you.
23
I go back to what Mr. McGuire said about the
So, my question is:
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What advice can any
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1
of you give the Commission with respect to gaining
2
recognition for the Métis, particularly in, say, Labrador,
3
Quebec or elsewhere where it is
4
this is going to be critical and if you can give us any
5
advice on this, this would be very helpful to me.
not there?
6
Thank you.
7
8
RICHARD LAFFERTY:
I really think
Richard?
One bit of advice I
9
could give you is in the writing of your report.
10
the report as if you are referring to all Métis,
11
irregardless of where they live.
12
distinction of the Métis of the Red River or the N.W.T.
13
Métis, if you can prevent that.
14
specifically referring to them for a purpose, make it clear
15
that you are speaking of Métis in Canada, irrespective
16
of where they live or who their predecessors were.
17
Thank you.
18
FRANK PALMATER:
Write
Don't make the
Unless you are
In New Brunswick our
19
organization never has and never will make the distinction
20
between Métis, status, non-status, we just basically call
21
everybody off-reserve Aboriginal people.
22
Commission could make a broad recommendation to the
23
government that when it deals with Aboriginal people it
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If the
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Royal Commission on
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1
deals with all Aboriginal people, as defined in the
2
Constitution, Indian, Inuit and Métis.
3
My definition of "Métis" is not the same
4
as everybody else's.
5
but you must be of Aboriginal ancestry somewhere in there
6
in order to qualify for Métis.
7
Brunswick, you must prove that.
8
9
Mine would be someone of mixed blood,
In the province of New
Someone asked what that would mean, how
many Métis in the province of New Brunswick.
Well, I don't
10
think we will engage in a process.
My board of directors
11
and the people may say, "You are wrong, big guy, we are
12
going to engage in it", but I somehow seriously doubt it.
13
We will not engage in an enumeration process where we
14
say, "You have to identify as one or the other, Métis,
15
non-status, Indian, Inuit, whatever."
16
If we enter into a process, it will be
17
to identify as Aboriginal people, one of the accepted terms
18
in the Constitution that would be acceptable, "Aboriginal
19
people".
20
definition of "Métis" in the province of New Brunswick.
We are not going to get stuck or hung up on the
21
22
23
I hope in your recommendations you
basically agree with that concept and go from there.
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people will want to define "Métis".
2
definition will be left up to the individual.
3
individual's choice.
4
am not asking the Commission to do that.
5
6
I do not.
That
That's an
It's not up to the Commission.
I
Will there be an enumeration process?
There has to be; no choice.
How will governments fund
7
those who identify as Aboriginal people, but don't fall
8
under the meaning of the Indian Act?
9
taxation, royalty payments.
On a per capita basis;
That's all in papers that
10
the Royal Commission has now from the New Brunswick
11
Aboriginal Peoples Council.
12
for the last year and a half.
13
different documents that we have set forth.
14
We have been presenting them
There are three or four
Those suggestions are not new, they are
15
there.
But how you deal with the definition of "Métis",
16
leave that to the people would be my recommendation.
17
Include them in the term "Aboriginal people" and when you
18
refer to government responsibility, make it responsibility
19
for Aboriginal people.
20
Thank you.
21
22
BERNIE HEARD:
23
short.
Bernie?
I will also be quite
Responding to your specific question, how can you
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help us with getting this recognition, in the case of
2
Labrador -- and I make the distinction between Labrador
3
and Newfoundland ---
4
5
COMMISSIONER PETER MEEKISON:
I know
that.
6
BERNIE HEARD:
I know you do, but I want
7
to make it clear that we do not and we never claimed to
8
represent anybody on the island of Newfoundland, only on
9
the mainland portion.
10
Mr. Wells has made it quite clear that
11
he recognizes the traditional Métis only.
By
12
"traditional" I mean those we learned about in school out
13
west.
14
summer to the question of the Labrador Métis, Mr. Wells
15
went on to say that, "There are Micmacs on the island.
16
All of them have mixed blood, really.
17
pure Micmac.
18
are you people calling yourselves Métis?"
In a specific response on a radio program last
They are no longer
If they don't call themselves Métis, why
19
My response to that is they didn't have
20
to.
They could call themselves Micmacs.
We can't, we
21
are not Micmacs.
22
Kirby's family perhaps would be the Micmac nation of
23
Labrador, I don't know, but again it would exclude a lot
Kirby has some Micmac background.
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of the others.
2
So, his response was, "Well, why don't
3
the people on the island call themselves Métis?
4
generally the same background.
5
group of people."
6
they didn't have to.
7
we wanted to have a choice, we didn't have one.
They are
They have a mixed blood
My response to that, basically, is that
We didn't have a choice.
Even if
8
If we wanted to call ourselves Inuit,
9
we could not, if we wanted to all ourselves Innu, we could
10
not because there were already organizations out there
11
using those terms.
12
we could not because there is already an organization in
13
the province calling themselves that.
If we wanted to call ourselves Micmacs,
14
There is a new group on the island of
15
Newfoundland right now who are seeking -- I don't know
16
if they have ever approached you or not, but they are
17
seeking recognition through whatever means they can.
18
don't know what they are calling themselves, but they do
19
definitely have Aboriginal ancestry.
20
associate with the Micmacs and they are pretty much in
21
the same boat, I guess, except they haven't quite
22
progressed as far as we have.
23
I
They cannot
I don't know, I think Frank or somebody
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on this side of the table made the proper suggestion, one
2
I was going to make.
3
Wells -- and I am convinced it is only Mr. Wells.
4
Mr. Wells accepts this, I think the Newfoundland government
5
will.
6
convinced that we are Aboriginal.
7
are Métis or Micmac or whatever, we are Aboriginal and
8
let it go from there.
That's my feeling.
9
10
Instead of trying to convince Mr.
Once
I think Mr. Wells has to be
Never mind whether we
It will happen.
Thank you
very much.
11
Mr. Dussault?
12
COMMISSIONER RENÉ DUSSAULT:
I would
13
like to ask a question that we have asked often during
14
the public hearings and it's the following:
15
to think that we could have a definition for one purpose
16
different than for another purpose?
Is it possible
17
Of course, we are talking of Métis here,
18
but, for example, we heard again and again that the Indian
19
Act does define Indian people and it should not be done
20
by government, but only Indian people should define who
21
they are, and on and on, and we have the same kind of
22
discussion here when we talk about enumeration of Métis.
23
The difficulty stems from the fact that
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when the definition is for programs and benefits, it can't
2
be left open-ended.
3
of being a people and having the recognition as a people,
4
it's quite different, obviously.
When it is for the sake of governance
5
We have tried over and over to have that
6
discussion with the various groups that were coming before
7
us and not with great success, I must say.
8
me that it is a stumbling block, in a way, because, for
9
example, we have been discussing the Métis and the Métis
It seems to
10
in Quebec in particular.
We were told there might be a
11
million, but it's more likely to be 2,000 or 5,000.
12
just don't know.
We
13
We have been told the Commission should
14
recommend equity of access to all programs, post-secondary
15
benefits, health benefits.
16
but we want to be taken seriously and really to make
17
inroads.
18
sub-questions.
19
is enumeration control only by people who self-declare,
20
then we enter into a larger debate as to whether the whole
21
province will want to self-declare to get this additional
22
benefit available on top of the general program.
23
It's one thing to do that,
We know that we have to address a couple of
It then needs enumeration.
Then if it
As we are ending these two days, the
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Commission is stuck with those kinds of questions and they
2
are very real.
3
how they would address the question as to whether we can
4
have a definition for the purpose of governance and
5
self-government and on and on and for the purpose of
6
programs and benefits and how a thing like that could be
7
managed politically and technically.
8
done?
So, I would like to ask the participants
How could it be
9
We can't put that issue under the carpet,
10
otherwise we are kind of discussing in a surrealist way.
11
We are not going to accomplish much as a Royal Commission
12
if we don't address those questions.
13
to the participants.
14
15
18
Thank you
very much.
16
17
So, I am putting
If we could make our answers short and
sweet again.
Kirby?
KIRBY LETHBRIDGE:
I believe that
19
jurisdiction is what will determine whether or not this
20
an extensive welfare program or the ascendancy of people
21
to their rightful place in this nation.
22
clear during the Charlottetown process that we were not
23
interested in welfarism.
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We make it very
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Royal Commission on
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I have talked to different people within
2
a particular Aboriginal representative organization in
3
Labrador and I was encouraged to seek membership in this
4
organization and was told that if I was who I said I was,
5
I should not have too much problem getting membership,
6
which would have gotten another mouthpiece out of the way
7
of the people who were engaging in the incredible shrinking
8
plan.
9
I never did apply for membership in that
10
organization because I am not interested in welfare.
11
Frank recognized, the goose has a very sore ass right now.
12
Like
It's not able to lay very many of these eggs.
13
We are not asking for welfare, we are
14
asking in a very polite way for this Commission to make
15
its final recommendation that there is an outstanding
16
obligation to Aboriginal people right across this country
17
and that the term "Métis" in section 35(2) has nothing
18
to do with a geographic reference on a map, it has nothing
19
to do with Euro-ethnicity, that original jurisdiction
20
still applies, that the obligation of the federal
21
government, the fiduciary obligation, is to us as well
22
and that the interference that we have experienced from
23
the provinces must cease and that they have to start dealing
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with us one-on-one, federal to our level of government
2
or whatever you want to call it.
It's an evolving process.
3
By sharing jurisdiction over certain
4
resources, you will see increased community benefit by
5
way of an increase of jobs, of self-esteem, revenues
6
reverting back to our communities rather than to
7
multinational corporate interests in Europe and the United
8
States.
9
I bring you back to a comment I made
10
yesterday regarding an allocation that was made by the
11
North Atlantic Fisheries organization in the 1980s when
12
they allocated 300,000 tons of ground fish to a
13
multinational corporate interest.
14
from Labrador took part in that fishery.
15
fishery, it was rape.
16
to a fish plant in Labrador.
17
some of it back processed in the United States and Atlantic
18
Canada.
Not one fishing vessel
It wasn't
Not one of those fish came ashore
We probably ended up buying
19
So, I think that rather than us trying
20
to snuggle up to the federal system and to somehow accept
21
them justifying their need for our resources, they have
22
to start recognizing that there is unfinished business
23
and we are it.
We don't want to be governed in Labrador
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by St. John's, by a colonial regime in St. John's.
2
don't want to be governed by them.
3
We
We see our resources being plundered and
4
looted by non-Native interests from St. John's, from
5
Newfoundland, from other parts of Canada and the United
6
States and Europe, and it's increasing.
7
jurisdiction with the federal government.
8
begging for something that isn't rightfully ours.
9
watch us.
Shared
We are not
Just
Help us to empower ourselves and help us to
10
help ourselves to what's rightfully ours and we won't
11
disappoint anybody.
12
that's not ours.
We are not trying to take something
13
Thank you.
14
FRANK PALMATER:
I can't really speak
15
for anyone else at the table but myself and how I would
16
like to see it.
17
going to let a bogeyman out of the closet here by saying,
18
"Holy jumpin', anybody with Aboriginal ancestry is going
19
to be able to jump on this bandwagon.
20
I don't share your concern that we are
In New Brunswick you get approval.
21
Status?
It don't mean dick to me.
22
paper from the government that says who can get services
23
from the Department of Indian Affairs, that's all.
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It's just a piece of
It
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Royal Commission on
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1
doesn't tell me who an Indian is.
It has no recognition
2
of culture, tradition, ancestry, nothing.
3
piece of paper that says you can get benefits from the
4
Department of Indian Affairs, that's it.
It's just a
5
In our province, if a status Indian walks
6
into our office and says, "I want to be a member because
7
I live off reserve", fine; "Where is your proof that you
8
are of Aboriginal ancestry", and then it goes before a
9
committee.
So, there is the bogeyman concept, that there
10
is so many people and everybody in the province of New
11
Brunswick can apply and say, "Now there is equity of access
12
to all programs and services for all Aboriginal people
13
who identify as Aboriginal people."
14
Self-identification is something that
15
a lot of Aboriginal people were afraid to do years ago.
16
I remember my grandmother slapping me because I wanted
17
to learn the Indian language, the Micmac language.
18
talk like that", she said, "You are not allowed.
19
nuns are going to beat you up."
20
learned were the bad words, I guess, and you can do that
21
with French, too.
22
learned.
23
"Don't
Them
The only words that I
It was only the bad words that you
Proof of Aboriginal ancestry will be
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paramount.
2
New Brunswick in our organization; no choice.
3
don't like it.
4
You must prove your claim in the province of
Some people
Some people say, "I'm not going, Frank.
I will never be a member of your organization because
5
I have to prove my ancestry."
6
will never be a member.
7
it, fine."
8
"Okay, all right, then you
See you.
When you want to prove
So, I don't share your concern that there
9
is going to be a large number of people coming forward
10
and identifying as being a Métis and, "I want my share."
11
12
I don't share that concern.
You must prove it in the
province of New Brunswick.
13
Our self-government model will demand
14
that the people who go through the new Brunswick Aboriginal
15
Peoples Council, or whatever comes from the New Brunswick
16
Aboriginal Peoples Council when self-government comes in,
17
we will demand that you prove your Aboriginal ancestry;
18
no choice.
19
car how far back, but you must prove it to the satisfaction
20
of a committee; not to one person, but to a group of people.
21
If your question was how do we justify
22
to governments the amount of money that it's going to take
23
to guarantee equity of access, I don't know.
We don't care where you are from and we don't
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Royal Commission on
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1
justify a 25-cent increase in their budgets today that
2
would be satisfactory to the government because they are
3
crying for money.
Everybody is.
4
They cut us and our budgets all the time.
5
I don't have an answer as to how we will be able to justify
6
it.
In the eyes of the government, if experience teaches
7
us anything, you will never be able to justify a claim
8
that we have; never.
9
exist, that doesn't mean that we don't have validity to
10
that claim just because they can't afford to pay for it.
11
I wish in the Commission report you could
12
take all reference to Indians, Inuit, Métis, Innu, Mohawk,
13
Cree, Crow and take that all out and call us Aboriginal
14
people because this is the Royal Commission on Aboriginal
15
People, is it not?
16
reference to Aboriginal people and just take the rest of
17
it out.
18
there.
19
we don't have to.
20
That doesn't mean the claim doesn't
So, if we could do that, make all
In my opinion, it's garbage.
It shouldn't be
We are taking it all into this conversation and
Hopefully, in the Maritimes true tribal
21
government will come back, the two First Nations, the
22
Micmac and the Malacite.
23
see it.
I don't know if I will live to
How do we justify the monetary aspect of it?
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I really don't have an answer for you.
2
you are going to be able to justify it to the government.
3
Maybe it won't be a job that the Royal Commission will
4
I don't know how
be able to complete; justification.
5
Maybe it's something that you won't be
6
able to put there and, like you said previously, if we
7
don't, they are going to take the report and put it on
8
a shelf and forget it, if it's something that they can't
9
realistically see today that they can achieve.
I hope
10
that isn't what happens on this Royal Commission and that's
11
why from New Brunswick we have participated.
12
We have participated wholeheartedly and
13
we will continue because we think it's an opportunity,
14
an opportunity to voice some of the concerns that we have,
15
that as Métis/Aboriginal people we haven't been treated
16
fairly, we haven't been given equity of access to any and
17
all programs that some others have had, who take that for
18
granted.
19
I am still paying off my student loan
20
that I will probably be paying off until I am 65, if I'm
21
lucky enough to live that long.
22
I did what I had to do, some things that I wasn't supposed
23
to do and I'm paying for that.
But I went to school and
But how do we give
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justification?
2
to answer your question as to how we justify that to the
3
government.
4
I don't know.
I don't think you will ever be able to.
COMMISSIONER RENÉ DUSSAULT:
5
want to prolong that.
6
more to the general public.
7
people who want to reply.
8
9
I really don't know how
I don't
It's not only to government, it's
But I know there are other
Also I would like to say that we have
been told again and again, "Don't lump all Aboriginal
10
people in a single pot because there are so many differences
11
and cultures", and on and on.
12
Okay, I am finished.
13
RICHARD LAFFERTY:
You should have
14
asked this question yesterday morning.
15
have gone on until now.
16
17
18
I think we could
A political definition is what I was
getting at with just self-identifying Aboriginal descent.
I'm from a family who has lived in the Northwest
19
Territories for -- I'm the twelfth generation.
20
the first two and the last two, there are eight generations
21
in there where there is no Indian content whatsoever.
22
It has been a Métis family up through the years.
23
Other than
If my people thought and if I gave the
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wrong impression that I was saying this is the definition
2
of "Métis" that should be used everywhere, I would probably
3
be lynched.
4
the specification definition and the ones that my family
5
uses and the ones that my community uses is the same thing.
That's not what I meant whatsoever because
6
7
The only Métis in my community and the
8
ones that will self-govern themselves and are well on their
9
way to doing that is my family.
We will define ourselves
10
unequivocally.
11
are as Métis.
12
Territories goes, that is consistent as well.
13
There is nobody who will tell us who we
As far as the Métis nation of the Northwest
So, for a political definition, it's
14
either you accept the fact that there are Métis in Canada
15
and there are people of Aboriginal descent and they
16
self-identify as those Métis or you don't accept the fact
17
that there is Métis at all.
I think it's that's simple
18
for a political definition.
For a specific definition,
19
we know who we are.
20
Perhaps you should get all the Indians,
21
the Inuit and the other Canadians to define who they are
22
and where are all the rest.
23
probably accept that definition of who the rest of us are.
If you can do that, I would
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Until you can do that, I don't think that it's an
2
appropriate question to ask anybody to identify who they
3
are specifically.
4
Thank you.
That's all I have.
5
RÉJAN PILOTE:
Je suis chanceux, parce
6
que je n'ai jamais à parler très longtemps, parce qu'il
7
y a du monde qui parlent et qui répondent assez bien aux
8
questions; et, quand on compte tout le reste, toutes les
9
interventions, je pense que ça balance, je pense que tout
10
le monde aurait environ le même temps d'intervention.
11
Je pense que, M. Dussault -- en tout cas,
12
comme j'ai compris votre intervention -- pour vous,
13
l'autonomie gouvernementale, en tout cas, vous avez dit
14
que vous compreniez très bien notre concept et peut-être
15
même que vous aviez l'air assez positif, et j'en suis
16
content.
17
Pour ce qui a trait à l'accès aux
18
programmes, je pense que les programmes sont toujours faits
19
en fonction des besoins des gens.
20
Cri, Métis ou peu importe, c'est toujours en fonction des
21
besoins des gens.
22
ce n'est même pas une préoccupation pour moi, parce que
23
si on a besoin d'un programme de formation professionnelle
Qu'on soit Montagnais,
Donc moi, la question des programmes,
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dans tel métier, que tu sois de n'importe quelle nation,
2
c'est un besoin et il y a un programme qui répond à un
3
besoin.
4
questions, c'est sur qui va administrer l'argent du
5
programme; mais l'argent, il est là, le programme, il est
6
là.
7
pour répondre à la réalité métisse, mais pour moi, en tout
8
cas, ce n'est pas une préoccupation.
9
Là où on peut, par exemple, se poser des
Peut-être qu'on a besoin de l'adapter un petit peu
Pour toute la question de
10
l'auto-définition et tout le kit, moi, je suis d'accord
11
à ce qu'on dise qu'on fait référence aux peuples
12
autochtones mais qu'on enlève le mot "Indiens" pour le
13
remplacer par le nom des nations du Canada.
14
trompe pas, il y en a 55, plus la nation métisse; et la
15
nation métisse englobe tous les Métis du Canada.
16
Si je ne me
Ensuite, quand on parle d'autonomie
17
gouvernementale, les Métis vont s'organiser un
18
gouvernement chacun dans leur région, et à ce moment-là,
19
ceux qui ne sont pas prêts à prendre la même direction,
20
c'est libre à eux.
21
Métis, ils peuvent rester membres de n'importe quelle
22
association, ils peuvent aller du côté qu'ils veulent.
23
Mais ceux qui désirent participer à l'établissement de
Autant ils peuvent se définir comme
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la nation métisse et veulent se gouverner comme peuple,
2
eux doivent avoir la possibilité de le faire.
3
Je vous remercie.
4
MARTIN DUNN:
Actually, for the first
5
time in two days I find myself in significant difference
6
with what just went on in response to your question.
7
Perhaps I have a different understanding
8
of what your question was driving at, but it seems to me
9
that any government department can design, through its
10
policy, a program to serve any given clientele and that
11
clientele can be defined any damn way the department feels
12
like defining it because they are the ones that are
13
providing the program and service and that has been the
14
problem in terms of responding to your question.
15
If we were to say, "Yes, of course", we
16
are, in effect, granting the government the right to define
17
"Métis" and that's what we cannot do.
18
to avoid at any cost, even if it costs us whatever programs
19
and services might be available if we were to agree.
20
That's what we have
But that doesn't prevent a department,
21
in an accommodation mode as opposed to a conflict
22
management mode, from sitting down and negotiating an
23
agreement with a community, which becomes defined in terms
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of the agreement for that specific service, whether that
2
community is called the Métis of Toronto or the Métis of
3
North York or the Métis of Labrador or the Métis of the
4
Northwest Territories, as long as the community that is
5
in the process of negotiating with the department does
6
the defining.
7
The difficulty comes when government
8
imposes definition for administrative convenience.
9
That's what has to be resisted.
So, it's quite possible
10
to have many, many different definitions of "Métis" for
11
specific purposes, as long as the Métis for whom that
12
purpose is designed participates in designing that
13
definition.
14
I don't know whether that gives you a
15
slightly different slant on your question or not.
I think
16
it's quite possible to -- just as a general example,
17
governments seem to think that every Aboriginal person
18
in this country is poor and needs the money and needs it
19
tomorrow, and that's not true.
20
Aboriginal people in this country.
21
middle class Aboriginal people in this country who will
22
never require a government service and who pay taxes so
23
that others can have such government service.
There are a lot of rich
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Royal Commission on
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So, I think you can design a specific
2
program to serve a specific community and to evolve
3
definitions in relationship with that community that serve
4
the delivery of that policy or program.
5
to designing national or broad regional programs that
6
incorporate numbers of populations, then it becomes
7
impossible.
8
But when it comes
That's why the Métis Accord definition
9
generated such paranoia in the rest of Canada, because
10
although the Accord itself specifically said it was to
11
apply only to the region identified as the Métis homeland
12
and only to the constituents of a specific number, a defined
13
number of Aboriginal organizations, there was an intense
14
fear that every government who signed that Accord would,
15
by virtue of signing it, exclude all other Métis from any
16
service that might ever be provided to Métis.
17
So, you are right, there can be different
18
approaches made in the context of different purposes, but
19
the trigger to all of those processes must be held in the
20
hands of the Aboriginal community, not in the hands of
21
the government who would then impose it on that community.
22
23
response, Monique.
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MONIQUE McKAY:
2
off my government hat.
3
this.
4
I'm just going to take
I usually do it a lot sooner than
I think it's important for the
5
Commission -- I mean I don't think the Commission, like
6
government, is ever going to come up with a definition
7
and say, "We have found who the Métis are and this is who
8
they are", and give a precise definition.
9
it is important for the Commission to recognize that there
10
is a sense of nationalism amongst Métis peoples and those
11
Métis peoples, as we have heard today, stem from different
12
parts of the country.
13
But I think
There is a sense of nationalism in the
14
west, we have all heard.
15
sense, I would think everyone has picked up now, from Quebec
16
and other parts of Canada.
17
it's important for the Commission to understand and relay
18
in its recommendations.
19
There also is a pretty strong
I think it's that concept that
It's always dangerous to agree with a
20
guy that's bigger than you, too, but it's not just that
21
we are Aboriginal people.
22
communities that are different from other Aboriginal
23
groups.
There is a Métis community or
They are different and they express that in their
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sense of nationalism.
2
Thank you
3
very much for your participation and your cooperation this
4
afternoon.
5
now remove myself from this job.
You have made my job very pleasant.
6
Thank you.
7
CHAIRMAN JIM BOURQUE:
8
much, indeed, K.C.
I will
Thank you very
You did a real good job.
9
We come to the tail end of our program
10
and I am going to ask our rapporteur, Marty Dunn, to give
11
us a little bit of a blurb on what he feels happened over
12
the last couple of days.
13
14
I am sure that you can do it in about
five minutes, Marty.
15
MARTIN DUNN:
Or less.
I have 50 pages
16
of notes, so I have no intention of going over those notes.
17
In retrospect, of course, when you look
18
back on what you might have or what might have been done
19
to make this meeting a little more successful, I take some
20
responsibility for the fact that the discussion has been
21
perhaps less helpful in terms of directly answering some
22
of the questions that were proposed than it might have
23
been.
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When we initially began to plan this,
2
we had hoped that there would be two days for this group
3
to meet with each other before they met with you,
4
specifically for the purposes of focusing our attention,
5
and that proved to be not feasible economically.
6
am sorry I didn't press a little bit harder for that because
7
I think it would have made this meeting a little smoother
8
and perhaps even a little more productive.
9
to say that it hasn't been.
10
Now I
That's not
I didn't go to the supper last night,
11
you might have noticed, because I wanted to go over these
12
notes.
13
would have a clear head and then sat down and went at them.
14
I was surprised by the amount of coherency that actually
15
comes out of it when you begin picking the salient points
16
from each person's presentation.
I went home and slept for four hours so that I
17
You may not be aware that I have been
18
asked to draft an actual summary of this meeting in print.
19
Would that be distributed to participants?
20
Well, then, you will have that, in any case.
21
Yes, good.
I think the two most significant things
22
to come out of this meeting were, to some extent,
23
predictable in the sense that one of the purposes of this
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meeting was to present to the Commission the diversity
2
of Métis existence in Canada and I think we have exceeded
3
that beyond our wildest expectations in the sense that
4
almost every voice here had a unique flavour in terms of
5
its approach to things, in terms of how they related to
6
identity, how they related to Aboriginal and Treaty rights,
7
how they perceived the problems of the impediments to
8
access to Aboriginal and Treaty rights and the differences
9
in solutions proposed to address those impediments.
10
To be fair to the Commission, this is
11
the first full-length hearing I have been a party to,
12
although, actually, I guess the one in Saskatoon was the
13
first one, but that was broken up into different sessions
14
so it wasn't quite so intense.
15
very much for the work you have done, not just in the last
16
two days but for the incredible patients you display in
17
terms of sitting there and absorbing this barrage of
18
information that comes at you.
19
I want to thank you all
I guess, in terms of focusing the thing
20
in sort of a wrap-up sense, if your report and if your
21
recommendations are able to just reflect the diversity
22
and to establish that that diversity is valid and that
23
there must be mechanisms and processes -- not to forge
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anything into a big globule package that can't be handled,
2
but that there must be recommendations that permit the
3
development of mechanisms to accommodate the diversity
4
-- I think that's the key element to this whole thing,
5
not just in terms of Métis, but in terms of Aboriginal
6
people in general.
7
I think if there is one lesson that came
8
out of the First Ministers' Conference process, it was
9
that.
It was that the old habit of developing a model
10
which everyone would then mould themselves to simply does
11
not work any more.
12
it just took a long time to fall apart.
13
thoroughly fallen apart.
14
about that.
15
does not work, no matter how much people struggle to get
16
into it via 91(24) or any other doorway.
It cannot work.
It never did work,
But now it has
I don't think there is any doubt
The model of the Department of Indian Affairs
17
I understand that there is a policy
18
development process going to go on now and that groups
19
of people are going to address different aspects of
20
different issues and that there is a year-long process
21
now going to be undertaken to absorb all of this data and
22
to form it into some kind of final report and
23
recommendations.
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If that report and if those
2
recommendations reflect the diversity of Métis peoples
3
themselves -- that is, that there are diverse and distinct
4
Métis peoples with sometimes related, sometimes
5
independent heritages, and that they are all validly
6
identified as being Aboriginal and as being Métis within
7
the meaning of section 35 and that their just aspirations
8
should be accommodated -- that's about all you can do.
9
I think it's up to you to propose the
10
solutions.
11
for a frame of reference, a forum, a change in attitude
12
on the part of governments which will allow each of these
13
communities in their own right to step forward and
14
negotiate the specific responses that they need from
15
government.
16
should be.
17
possibilities.
18
I think it's up to you to propose the necessity
You cannot propose what those responses
There are too many problems and too many
All you can hope to do, I think, is
19
encourage -- well, perhaps I shouldn't say "encourage".
20
I would hope you would actually demand because although
21
I realize you have to present what is workable, I don't
22
think you should present the lowest common denominator.
23
You have to take some high ground in terms of saying,
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2
3
"Whatever the cost, it's going to cost more if we don't."
That's the response to the question of cost.
It's going
to cost you more if you don't, a lot more.
4
I hope that the people around this table
5
have been able to demonstrate to you -- and I certainly
6
got from the discussions here -- that whatever the details
7
are and whatever the specific issues and proposals might
8
be, what is being dealt with here is a very real human
9
reality.
It's not a question just of policy and it's not
10
a question just of constitutional law and it's not a
11
question of political relationship entirely, it's a
12
question of human identity, it's a question of how
13
Canadians experience themselves, how the original
14
Canadians experienced themselves.
15
I hope we have given you ammunition to
16
adopt that kind of a frame of reference and to use that
17
as a springboard in terms of your policy development and
18
in terms of your recommendations.
19
the resolutions of the Assembly of the Native Council of
20
Canada, which are appended to this report, become an
21
official part of this meeting and of this presentation
22
and that they will be considered in due course.
23
I'm assuming, too, that
I haven't had a chance to talk to the
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people at NCC yet as to whether specific intervention will
2
be made by a letter or whatever in relation to those
3
resolutions, but they are here, in any case, and I hope
4
you will consider them in the course of your deliberations.
5
I thank, too, all of the people who came
6
here and who expressed themselves as individuals and as
7
representatives of their community.
8
at any rate, that if you now know nothing else that you
9
didn't know two days ago, it is that there are a lot of
10
good Métis people out there who are looking for solutions
11
and who are looking to you to open the door to the process
12
where those solutions can be achieved.
13
14
I hope, or I assume,
Thank you, Mr.
Dunn.
15
I just have one comment.
I am glad to
16
hear, Frank, that you have an open-door policy in your
17
organization because I can trace my roots to New Brunswick.
18
In fact we might even be related, who knows.
19
FRANK PALMATER:
Watch it now, be
20
careful.
I have always been very careful about that, Jim,
21
because there is an old saying in New Brunswick:
22
pick your friends and you can pick your nose, but you can't
23
pick your family.
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Royal Commission on
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2
to ask Mr. Dussault for his closing remarks.
3
4
Now I am going
CO-CHAIR RENÉ DUSSAULT:
long day for everybody.
It has been a
I won't take much of your time.
5
First of all, I would like to say that
6
Bertha Wilson has not been with us today because she had
7
a prior commitment.
8
speech and she wanted to convey her regret for not being
9
able to be with us for the full two days.
10
She went to Toronto to deliver a
Georges Erasmus had to leave after
11
coffee break for personal reasons also and he asked me
12
to convey that he really appreciated meeting each and every
13
one of you, as all Commissioners did, during the last two
14
days.
15
We had an opportunity to meet many of
16
you and certainly probably most of you during the hearings,
17
but we were sitting in panels and, frankly, we felt that,
18
as a Commission, as a whole, it was very important for
19
us to be exposed to this kind of diversity of people and
20
experience that you have given us during the last two days.
21
We are looking forward very much to that kind of exposure
22
and having everybody around the table.
23
from the Northwest Territories, we have learned from
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Royal Commission on
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Quebec, we have learned from Ontario, Labrador, New
2
Brunswick and all those who participated, and the B.C.
3
people also.
4
Obviously, this meeting was to focus on
5
the Métis situation outside the Prairies, but we do have
6
representatives from the Prairie provinces, from
7
government and we were very happy to have these
8
representatives.
9
picture of the whole situation and the whole reality and
So, I think we come out with a clearer
10
it is going to be very important for the Commission's
11
deliberations.
12
We would have liked, of course, to dig
13
maybe a bit further on the solutions and the difficulties.
14
We heard some wisdom from our rapporteur in a way and
15
we will be looking forward to read the report and certainly
16
suggestions that will be made.
17
to each and every one of you.
18
This will be circulated
Je voudrais en terminant remercier tous
19
les participants d'avoir accepté notre invitation.
20
Durant ces deux journées, je pense que nous avons accompli
21
certainement un travail de sensibilisation collective qui
22
était absolument nécessaire et important.
23
Il y a eu peut-être certaines
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difficultés qui se sont soulevées; on n'a pas eu tous les
2
participants qu'on aurait aimé avoir du côté des
3
gouvernements certainement.
4
certain nombre d'empêchements du côté d'un certain nombre
5
de représentants du côté des femmes métisses qui ont amené
6
la situation qu'on a vécue.
7
des querelles de drapeau.
8
réalité, ça montre l'importance de pouvoir dialoguer en
9
étant sensibles à toutes les réalités et, effectivement,
10
Également, il y a eu un
Également, on a failli avoir
C'est effectivement une
c'est une réalité qui est complexe.
11
La Commission espère, avec les
12
commentaires qui ont été faits, pouvoir éviter en tout
13
cas les erreurs importantes sur ce plan-là dans le choix
14
de ses mots, dans la façon de s'exprimer.
15
apparaissait encore une fois essentiel de pouvoir faire
16
cette rencontre.
17
aptes à non seulement produire des recommandations qui,
18
nous l'espérons, vont être acceptables à la fois pour tous
19
les Métis du Canada mais également pour les gouvernements
20
et le grand public, parce qu'on doit avoir un oeil aussi
21
sur la réception dans le grand public, mais également,
22
nous espérons pouvoir nous exprimer d'une façon qui va
23
être convaincante à la fois pour les peuples autochtones
Il nous
Ça va certainement nous rendre plus
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Royal Commission on
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1
au Canada et également pour le gouvernement et le public.
2
Alors nous espérons que nous allons
3
pouvoir garder le contact d'ici la fin de nos travaux,
4
et n'hésitez pas à nous faire parvenir des idées
5
additionnelles.
6
material, share your additional thoughts with us until
7
the end of this year becaue we will be looking forward
8
to hearing from you.
9
Do not hesitate to send us additional
Merci.
10
JIM BOURQUE:
Merci.
11
Mr. Chartrand?
12
COMMISSIONER PAUL CHARTRAND:
13
you, Jim.
14
the Métis Commissioner on this panel of seven.
Thank
I have been asked to make comments since I am
15
Having said that, I want to emphasize
16
that the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples does not
17
speak on behalf of anyone and any particular Commissioner
18
does not speak on behalf of anybody else.
19
people and Aboriginal organizations can do an excellent
20
job of doing that themselves.
21
policy recommendations to the federal government based
22
on our judgment and your views are important material
23
considerations in arriving at that judgment.
The Aboriginal
Our role is that of making
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Royal Commission on
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We have heard a lot in the last two days
2
about identity.
Canada is a project built upon the ancient
3
homeland of others and in that process many identities
4
have been submerged and distorted.
5
where these identities now emerge.
6
reformulate themselves and this certainly is a process
7
that takes time.
8
9
We are seeing a process
They emerge and
We heard in these last two days that in
this process we see a beneficial outcome where many
10
individuals acknowledge the significance of their
11
Aboriginal roots.
12
nationalism and various notions of nationalism and indeed
13
other notions of identity about Métis people and the
14
signficance of personal and group identity for purposes
15
of policy-making, including the matter of defining for
16
policy purposes the Indian, the Métis and the Inuit
17
peoples, as an exceedingly difficult task.
18
19
We certainly have heard about Métis
It has the kind of complexity that makes
the head hurt.
It is also a very sensitive discussion.
20
It involves not only matters very close to the heart and
21
sole of identity, but matters that involve symbols as well.
22
23
A number of people have remarked that
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Royal Commission on
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the longest debate in the history of Parliament was the
2
flag debate.
3
interesting difficult debates and this is no exception.
4
It seems that it is unavoidable at the end of the day
5
to tie definitions for policy-making purposes to specific
6
goals; that is, I cannot see how we can avoid a functional
7
approach to definitions.
8
9
Matters of identity always generate very
I would like to make a general remark
to complete my remarks.
First, Canada is a large country
10
with a very unique history and we have many Aboriginal
11
peoples scattered in various places across the country
12
as individuals and as communities.
13
very small in comparison to the population of Canada and
14
in comparison to the geography of this country.
15
little power, relatively speaking, and these are all
16
material considerations for our mandate.
The Métis people are
They have
17
You will recall that in 1885 when Louis
18
Riel was hanged, the Prime Minister of the day, MacDonald,
19
made a speech, in which he said that Riel shall hang, though
20
every dog in Quebec barks in his favour.
21
the fact that the Métis people, with this little power
22
that we have had in Canada and have in Canada, have never
23
been the primary political actors in this country.
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That symbolizes
530
Royal Commission on
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1
But I think it's essential to recognize,
2
at least if we are going to talk about the group rights
3
as a Métis people, the nature of the Métis people as
4
political actors.
5
two days suggests other than a notion of self-government,
6
as a race-based government, is not an obstacle to the
7
gaining of that in Canada.
8
9
Nothing that I have heard in these last
How is power to be gained by this small
group?
I have heard a few general suggestions.
I have
10
heard an emphasis on education, I have heard an emphasis
11
on the access to the benefits of income and profits.
12
is much to be said for the notion that knowledge is power
13
and that economic power precedes and necessarily
14
accompanies political power.
15
There
We have heard also about direct action,
16
today we did.
We have heard also about the benefits of
17
Aboriginal solidarity and I also heard about the benefits
18
of court action that can be taken.
19
about the large struggle of the Métis people, I can't help
20
but notice that the identity of the Métis is insecure in
21
many ways in this country.
But when I reflect
22
But one of the largest difficulties in
23
trying to understand that is this Métis insecurity takes
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Royal Commission on
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1
place in the context of a Canadian identity that is itself
2
insecure and in the context of a Quebecois identity also
3
that is insecure.
4
the issue even more complex than might otherwise be.
5
could not forget the difficulties that arise because of
6
competing nationalisms.
7
I think these are all matters that make
We
To finish, I note that many speakers
8
turned to notions of rights in order to explain to us the
9
nature of their claims.
As somebody said, rights in Canada
10
has replaced warfare, unless some people are not quite
11
sure about what they have called constitutional warfare.
12
But it's our job to make policy recommendations to the
13
federal government and if we are to adopt the dialogue
14
of rights, then I would note that the dialogue of rights
15
requires very, very careful explanations.
16
That is a very large question.
It's a
17
large burden that we have to undertake and we cannot avoid
18
and it's for that reason that we thank you so very much
19
for your help because without your help we do not have
20
the factual background which is necessary for making our
21
decisions, making our judgments.
22
23
Je remercie tous ceux qui nous ont parlé
en français; je vous ai bien écoutés.
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Je regrette
532
Royal Commission on
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1
seulement que, manquant de pratique, et du fait que je
2
pense maintenant depuis beaucoup d'années en anglais,
3
c'est mieux pour tout le monde que je m'exprime
4
ordinairement en anglais.
5
6
Merci beaucoup.
I thank also our rapporteur, Mr. Dunn,
and all the staff who assisted us.
Meegwetch.
7
8
Right after Mr. Sinclair gives his
9
Thank you, Paul.
closing remarks, Mr. Dussault is going to make a
10
presentation to a unique individual.
I am going to ask
11
you all to stay for that, not to leave until that's done.
12
Mr. Sinclair?
13
JIM SINCLAIR, President, Native Council
14
of Canada:
Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen.
15
I noticed when I came in the room this afternoon you were
16
talking about identity and the geographical existence of
17
the Métis.
18
said, you would have ended with that, because that's really
19
the crux of the problems that seems to have been happening
20
over the last few years.
If you had started with that, like someone
21
First of all, I would like to say again
22
that prior to the first constitutional meeting that was
23
committed through the constitutional amendment that
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Royal Commission on
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1
allowed for, I think it was, five meetings over four years
2
or four meetings over five years -- I can't remember, we
3
have been at so many -- that addressed Aboriginal issues
4
and some amendments to the Constitution.
5
decision was made about who would represent at the table
6
the Métis people, of course, we had some difficulties,
7
much as you are having difficulties today.
8
9
When the
At that time, we took the Prime Minister
to court.
But I would like to give just a little background
10
to maybe understand where at that time the Métis homeland
11
or we felt it existed.
12
When we took the Prime Minister to court,
13
prior to that, we had a national meeting to talk about
14
Métis issues and Métis identity.
15
in Edmonton, Alberta.
16
there and we didn't really draw any lines as to where these
17
people would come from.
18
meeting and Métis who felt that they belonged or wanted
19
to be identified and wanted to have a place at the table
20
at the constitutional talks should be there.
21
That meeting was held
We had approximately 500 people
We just said we would call a
We had people from the Territories, from
22
the Yukon, from Alberta, from British Columbia, from
23
Saskatchewan, from Manitoba and northwestern Ontario.
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Royal Commission on
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That seemed to be the extent of our people that came at
2
that time and when we went to court, we based the Métis
3
homeland in terms of that geographical area.
4
even had a badge or one of these little pins that had the
5
geographical area of the Métis people.
6
In fact we
When we went to court at that time, we
7
were given seats at the table under those conditions.
8
But at no time did we ever say that is the end or that's
9
it for the boundaries, because even in our own organization
10
at that particular time the identity was almost mushrooming
11
out.
12
Some people felt that Batouche was the
13
homeland of the Métis and that that's where it should all
14
begin, some people felt the Red River was the Métis where
15
it should all begin, and we had the most prominent Métis
16
from Batouche, Frederick McDougall and Howard Adams, who
17
at that time, when I first met to begin organizing, used
18
the word "half-breed".
19
and we seemed to be comfortable with that for many years
20
because half-breed included me, half-breed included many
21
of us who are mostly Indian who did not belong to the Indian
22
reserves.
23
They used the word "half-breed"
We were comfortable with that.
When we got into the Métis side, of
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Royal Commission on
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course, it began to be a much more difficult identity.
2
Some people said the Red River Métis are the Métis where
3
all existence comes from and, of course, others said, "What
4
about us who are English Métis, what about us who are Scotch
5
Métis."
6
We even had organizations that joined
7
us -- and I wish we still had those documents -- from Poland,
8
we had from France, we had from England and we had from
9
Italy, people who were members of our organization through
10
a charter, who corresponded with us from overseas.
11
Because of the Second World War, there were also people
12
over there who felt they were Métis people.
13
again they were even on an international basis.
14
to you today that Howard Adams, who at that time was a
15
very prominent spokesman for Métis people and still is
16
today -- he has a very militant radical point of view of
17
Canada -- he talked about the growing sense of Métis
18
nationalism and he never confined that to any place.
19
said, "There is a growing sense of nationalism of Métis
20
people in Canada", and I think that sense of nationalism
21
is still growing today.
22
23
So,
I say
He
So, I want to say to you again that I
don't believe that again we have to close the doors on
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Royal Commission on
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1
anyone.
That's not up to me, it's not up to this
2
Commission, it's not up to governments.
3
people themselves to struggle for their identity and to
4
come forward with their identity.
It's up to the
5
It's getting to the stage now during the
6
next few years of negotiations that I am going to say things
7
here that maybe our board members might come back and say
8
I am wrong.
9
can no longer get up and say it represents everybody.
But I am saying that a national organization
10
People must represent themselves.
11
themselves and they must see fit how to represent
12
themselves.
13
They must represent
We can only facilitate the development
14
or facilitate their negotiations or a process with
15
governments, but we can no longer come along and try to
16
pretend that we represent people, who, when it comes down
17
to reality, are not represented at all.
18
to the urban Indians in Winnipeg, I can go back to the
19
urban Indians in Regina, I can go back to the urban Indians
20
in other places who are not represented by us or the Indian
21
organizations or anyone.
22
represent themselves.
23
help facilitate them, but they must identify and represent
I can go back
I am telling them they must
We will open the doors, we will
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Royal Commission on
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1
themselves.
2
I think that's the road that we want to take.
I remember Prime Minister Trudeau, when
3
he was at one of the first constitutional meetings.
When
4
he addressed the Métis issues, he said, "We have a social
5
problem.
6
problem", because a social problem means that somebody
7
wants to look after us in terms of our welfare, in terms
8
of our little programs here and there.
I said, "No, we don't, we have a political
9
But we have a political problem that
10
needs a political solution because we are a people who
11
have been despised and dispersed and you wouldn't be having
12
that argument today if we had a clear identity, if we had
13
some way of understanding, and I won't impose my views
14
on another nation.
15
I think today even the Métis themselves
16
are using the words "Métis nation" in different provinces
17
as not just one Métis nation, but a Métis nation here and
18
a Métis nation there, and that's fair enough because there
19
are many nations of Métis people who think differently
20
and who understand things differently and see themselves
21
differently.
22
23
That's fair to me.
Mr. Lafferty here has talked about the
Northwest Territories.
I have been there many times and
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Royal Commission on
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1
I see the identity that these people have and the pride
2
they have in their identity is very, very important, very,
3
very important.
4
Manitoba where people there have a view of their identity
5
and it's very, very important to them.
6
different, but they are still the same people when they
7
get together at a meeting.
8
arguments, the same discussions.
9
Yet, at the same time, I have been to
It may be
We still have the same
So, again I just want to express to you
10
the feelings that this Commission, hearing some of the
11
views, may not have any of the answers.
12
have the answers today, but we will through you people
13
organizing yourselves and fighting your rights and we must
14
facilitate those rights as political organizations and
15
we must help people in pursing those rights.
16
important for us.
17
on anyone.
18
Maybe we didn't
That's
But we cannot enforce or impose anything
I'm glad to see that some of the
19
organizations -- I remember during the early days at the
20
Native Council of Canada when we talked about Métis.
21
People in eastern Canada at that time didn't use the word
22
"Métis" because they were talking about going back to their
23
original roots, the Micmac and Malacite.
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So, they talked about that and that was
2
their goal and I am glad today so many of them have achieved
3
those goals and are still looking at bringing in the rest
4
of their people that's left out.
5
done by an Indian Act, it's going to be done by Aboriginal
6
governments, if I can use that word.
7
It's not going to be
So, we have some hard work ahead of us
8
and I think that we need to help wherever we can help,
9
and we are prepared to do that.
10
those issues.
11
implemented in this country.
12
This country has to address
There are certain rights that have to be
Yesterday Paul and I were having a talk
13
and I heard someone say today -- and I think it's true
14
to some degree; it's not something that you can just laugh
15
at -- the fact is that we say within the Métis homeland,
16
"Why ask us to identify?
17
because if you are in another nation, it's not for the
18
nation to identify itself, it's for the others to identify
19
within that particular nation.
20
Why not the others identify",
So, this is a two-bladed sword.
You
21
can't be talking about one thing without somebody else
22
coming along and talking about another.
23
there is a responsibility there to sit down with
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So, I think that
540
Royal Commission on
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1
governments as well once you decide on your membership
2
or citizenship and have some clear discussions on some
3
of these issues.
4
I didn't like to take up too much time,
5
Jim, but I know that you talked about some of these issues
6
today.
7
future, we are going to have to address them as political
8
organizations, we are going to have to deal with the
9
governments on this.
10
They are going to have to be addressed in the
We have our job cut out for us and
we are going to have to do our best at it.
Thanks a lot.
11
I would like to thank the Commission for
12
being here the last couple of days to listen to some of
13
our people and I think, of all the jobs you have had over
14
the last few months, this one of the toughest because
15
everybody has now been brought in.
16
at the fringe areas -- and I hate to use that word, but
17
it's the truth to some matter -- that people are just
18
starting to get up now and say, "Hey, we are Métis and
19
there is a growing sense of nationalism and it's finally
20
going right across Canada."
21
whether we like it or not.
We are just looking
We have to deal with that
That's what we have to do.
22
Thanks a lot.
23
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Thank you, Mr.
541
Royal Commission on
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1
Sinclair.
2
At this time I would also like to thank
3
all the participants for their cooperation and discussion.
4
I think there was some frank dialogue and it's always
5
6
good to see.
I want to thank you all.
Now I am going to call on Elder Vincent
7
to come and take this chair to do his prayer from here
8
because there is another function as well.
9
Alors avant
10
que M. Vincent ne fasse la prière, en témoignage de
11
remerciement et de reconnaissance pour le travail qu'il
12
a fait avec nous, qui est certainement très utile, je
13
voudrais vous remercier d'avoir accepté notre invitation
14
et vous donner un témoignage de notre appréciation.
15
PAUL VINCENT, ancien:
Merci beaucoup.
16
On m'a prié de porter à votre
17
connaissance que ce soir nous ne faisons que clôturer cette
18
assemblée spéciale.
19
travaux à ce moment-ci; ils vont continuer encore, et
20
d'autres réunions sont prévues dans l'avenir.
21
--- (Prière de clôture par Paul Vincent, ancien)
22
--- Whereupon the Hearing concluded at 5:50 p.m.
La Commission ne terminera pas ses
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Transcription

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